Thread: so, who's using subs?

Results 21 to 40 of 102

  1. #21
    Plays in Winger cover band Enjoys scratching self too much
    Join Date Sep 2007
    Location Toronto, cananda
    Posts 712
    Rep Power 536871052

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    This thread is making me hungry. I'm thinking that a good meatball sub would go really nicely about now.... Extra parm........
    me too, but then again I don't need much of an arm twist for that. stomach is actually grumbling as I'm writing this.

    thats interesting about the dual sub thing you mentioned, never considered that before. I always thought that because low end is somewhat non-directional, it didn't matter. You wouldn't happen to have the link for that thread, would you?

    on a side note, wish i lived where you are. only thing you find on the side of the road here are old couches, shitty ikea furniture, and old tube tv's.

    Likewise, it is entirely possible to create music with extended sub response on speakers which rolloff on the low end if one knows what he's doing.
    are there certain "tells" that you've found useful ( i mean, other than visual references). For instance, say a compressor pumping a certain way when low end is added or something along those lines? I have a hard time figuring out a balance between 'enough' and 'too much'. When it sounds good, I worry about stripping away too much low end to get a bit more level in the overall mix, but i guess thats another discussion.

    I have MM27s which have subwoofers built in. I find them quite helpful. First (and some would no doubt argue foremost), clients love them. Personally I believe they allow me to let about as much low end live in the mix without going overboard, because I can actually hear it
    thats the rub for me. I want to hear more so I can do less, if that makes sense. I wonder if I'm boosting in the wrong areas to hear certain things where I should maybe be going lower on the fundamental instead.

    nice monitors, btw. Id have to fucking re-mortgage my house for the stuff barefoot makes. I always found the name "micro" amusing, though. nothing micro about near fields (mid?) with a bloody sub built in.
  2. #22
    Little River Band on The Run Internet Meme
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location State of Denial
    Posts 6,407
    Rep Power 536871252

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    I had two quarter wave pipes with Lowther broadband speaker in driven by an Edison 15 W tube amp and despite of being one of the best low end constructions - the bass sucked so I bought a sub for it. Didn't take me long to realize that I actually could hear directionality in the bass so I had to get another.

    Never had that problem with the Genelec system or the H&K 300W PA I've put into my travel rig.
  3. #23
    Plays in Winger cover band Enjoys scratching self too much
    Join Date Sep 2007
    Location Toronto, cananda
    Posts 712
    Rep Power 536871052

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    I had two quarter wave pipes with Lowther broadband speaker in driven by an Edison 15 W tube amp and despite of being one of the best low end constructions - the bass sucked so I bought a sub for it. Didn't take me long to realize that I actually could hear directionality in the bass so I had to get another.

    Never had that problem with the Genelec system or the H&K 300W PA I've put into my travel rig.
    just wondering if the position of the sub made the difference for you. I mean, if you had the sub somewhere in the centre of your mix position, that should alleviate any directional 'pulling' to one side or the other, right? the last place i lived in, the owner had a yamaha sub underneath/behind the console and I honestly couldn't tell. i guess his room/setup probably had a lot to do with that, though.

    and, back to why you had to move, i think i remember you saying something about being sensitive to electro-magnetic interference or something. it was a while ago, but is this about right? it was more than a few years ago, so i might be confused with someone else.
  4. #24
    Little River Band on The Run Internet Meme
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location State of Denial
    Posts 6,407
    Rep Power 536871252

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    just wondering if the position of the sub made the difference for you. I mean, if you had the sub somewhere in the centre of your mix position, that should alleviate any directional 'pulling' to one side or the other, right? the last place i lived in, the owner had a yamaha sub underneath/behind the console and I honestly couldn't tell. i guess his room/setup probably had a lot to do with that, though.

    and, back to why you had to move, i think i remember you saying something about being sensitive to electro-magnetic interference or something. it was a while ago, but is this about right? it was more than a few years ago, so i might be confused with someone else.
    No - you're right. I have since found out by trial and error that the illness stems from food and sensitivity to chemicals. I'm sensitive to gluten, milk protein, salicylic acid, histamine (especially from food processing) and alcohol to name a few, but by adhering to a strict diet of chicken, beef, carrots, and onion plus lactofermented vegetables and sprouts (without salicylic acid) - I'm well enough to live in a city. Albeit with no neighbours using DECT-phones or WiFi but at least being able to have people using cell phones a few meters away.

    And I do run into electrical gadgets (where most use switched power supplies) that I can't be close to. Every single piece of gear I have have been tested and passed the test. Test is simple - if I don't get symptoms within ten seconds - they're normally ok.

    There is a diagnos for my illness - it's called ME/CFS and sensitivity to EMF is just another symptom in a sea of things I react to. You have no idea what effort I've put in to find out what is the root problems. And that from not being able to sleep a single great night in 13 years. I got my diagnose a year ago and 12 years without knowing what ME/CFS has been a living nightmare.

    I sincerely hope that no-one will have to do that. Ever.

    Cheers - P

    PS About the placement of the sub - I tried them all. But with my present system it seems like there is no placement tried that makes me susceptive to directionality
    Last edited by Knastratt; January 24th, 2016 at 02:43 AM.
  5. #25
    Join Date Sep 2009
    Location Quake City
    Posts 11,770
    Rep Power 536871396

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    I don't have a link to that old thread and, given my luck (or lack of it) with the search function on older threads since the software upgrade I'm not optimistic about my ability to find it. I don't remember the title, either, but you could try searching on the obvious terms (yeah, I know, not very helpful), you'd probably find some interesting stuff whether or not that particular post comes up...
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  6. #26
    Plays in Winger cover band Enjoys scratching self too much
    Join Date Sep 2007
    Location Toronto, cananda
    Posts 712
    Rep Power 536871052

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    thanks anyway john! just curious, but honestly, can't see myself shelling out for 2 dynaudio subs anytime soon, lol. its an interesting concept, tho.

    on a similar concept, we all use 2 monitors and have a 'phantom centre' image of things in the middle. if the same concept is true of the directionality of subs, then who's out there mixing using an LCR setup with their near fields?

    I only ask because I'm building a mix room in the new house. Seems from what I've heard so far that an 'improperly installed/calibrated sub' would be worse than a setup without. But what if it was a single sub, centre position, properly calibrated? other than rolloff settings on the monitors and volume adjustments on the sub, anything else involved in calibrating a 2.1 system?
    Blah. Blah. Blee.

    Somebody kill me.

    SM.
  7. #27
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Sweden
    Posts 14,273
    Rep Power 536871514

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    This thread is making me hungry. I'm thinking that a good meatball sub would go really nicely about now.... Extra parm........
    A friend of mine took me to a jewish deli in SF years ago, that had the most INSANE pastrami subs I've ever seen/tasted. Unfortunately cannot remember the name of the place… (ok, I'll stop derailing this thread now…)


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  8. #28
    Join Date Sep 2009
    Location Quake City
    Posts 11,770
    Rep Power 536871396

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    A friend of mine took me to a jewish deli in SF years ago, that had the most INSANE pastrami subs I've ever seen/tasted. Unfortunately cannot remember the name of the place… (ok, I'll stop derailing this thread now…)


    otek

    Miller's on Polk?
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  9. #29
    Join Date Sep 2009
    Location Quake City
    Posts 11,770
    Rep Power 536871396

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?


    I only ask because I'm building a mix room in the new house. Seems from what I've heard so far that an 'improperly installed/calibrated sub' would be worse than a setup without.
    Yes.

    But what if it was a single sub, centre position, properly calibrated?
    In my opinion, that's an oxymoron. A single sub in the center can't be properly calibrated to reflect the low end of a stereo mix.

    That doesn't matter much for punter's playback systems. It does matter for mixdown engineers.

    other than rolloff settings on the monitors and volume adjustments on the sub, anything else involved in calibrating a 2.1 system?
    You can't "properly calibrate" a 2.1 system for serious mixing. Your imaging will be off.

    2.1 system,s are for end user playback.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  10. #30
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Sweden
    Posts 14,273
    Rep Power 536871514

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    Sounds very familiar - I believe that might be the one!

    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  11. #31
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Long Island, NY, USA
    Posts 11,595
    Rep Power 536871425

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    I think Neumann made a sub but you can't find them any more.

    .
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	U_47_Lt_Commander_Prien-837782734-large[1].jpg 
Views:	20 
Size:	104.9 KB 
ID:	13191  

    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  12. #32
    Highway to Hell is for Children Area 51 gardener
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Posts 5,347
    Rep Power 536871217

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    They make modern reissues
    When in doubt, mumble!

    EVERYTHING SOUNDS LIKE SHIT IF YA LISTEN LONG AND HARD ENOUGH.
  13. #33
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Long Island, NY, USA
    Posts 11,595
    Rep Power 536871425

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    Not the same as a U-47. Supposedly the new ones have low end that lasts for weeks.

    But, you know, some people are going to insist on the original.

    While I was searching images I ran across the Revell model. I don't remember those. We mostly made planes and cars.

    http://www.oldmodelkits.com/index.php?detail=13495
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	100_0310_01[1].jpg 
Views:	18 
Size:	29.2 KB 
ID:	13192  

    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  14. #34
    Plays in Winger cover band Enjoys scratching self too much
    Join Date Sep 2007
    Location Toronto, cananda
    Posts 712
    Rep Power 536871052

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    You can't "properly calibrate" a 2.1 system for serious mixing. Your imaging will be off.

    2.1 system,s are for end user playback.
    alright, while I'm not trying to argue, isn't the whole point of mixing to get it 'right' for the end-user system? kinda the reason ns-10's became standardized; it wasn't for their 'hi-fi-ness'.

    as for the imaging part, for me, that tends to come from the information in the higher frequencies anyhow, no? things in the sub frequencies tend to be things like kick and bass, which are almost always up the middle.

    either way, just musing i suppose. I'm more than likely wrong. everyone enjoy whats left of the weekend. for some reason, its +6 degrees celsius over here so I'm gonna go grab a seat on the deck, probably a cigar...likely a beer.



    on a side, this thread has officially been submarined, sandwich or otherwise...which reminds me...

    <strong>teamcoco.com/video/sandwiches-we-remember
  15. #35
    Highway to Hell is for Children Area 51 gardener
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Posts 5,347
    Rep Power 536871217

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    alright, while I'm not trying to argue, isn't the whole point of mixing to get it 'right' for the end-user system?
    It is pointless to try to achieve that via using something "end-user" based, as there's no common standard and all kinds of f**ked up systems are in use.
    When in doubt, mumble!

    EVERYTHING SOUNDS LIKE SHIT IF YA LISTEN LONG AND HARD ENOUGH.
  16. #36
    Join Date Nov 2006
    Location Sweden
    Posts 14,273
    Rep Power 536871514

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    What Meloco said. It's a moving target. Your end user could be a 14-year old girl in Milwaukee with computer speakers wired out of phase and one tweeter blown, or it could be a Lawyer in Orlando with a pair of Magico Q7s and Wavac monoblocks in a custom-built room.


    otek
    "Tube color is not the 'thing'. Why would the most linear amplifying device have a color?" - Jonte Knif
  17. #37
    Join Date Sep 2009
    Location Quake City
    Posts 11,770
    Rep Power 536871396

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    alright, while I'm not trying to argue, isn't the whole point of mixing to get it 'right' for the end-user system? kinda the reason ns-10's became standardized; it wasn't for their 'hi-fi-ness'.

    as for the imaging part, for me, that tends to come from the information in the higher frequencies anyhow, no? things in the sub frequencies tend to be things like kick and bass, which are almost always up the middle.
    Well, I've never been a fan of NS -10s, but I'm told that the reason people use them is that they have excellent phase linearity or some such and they reveal certain things that other speakers don't.

    The thing to bear in mind is that mixing is all about having your work translate across different systems. Using an outboard sub introduces a variable that tends to work against translation.

    And, as said above, just because your end user is likely to be using a screwed up playback system in NOT a reason to use one yourself, except possibly as a check to see how your mix (done on proper monitoring) sounds on a particular screwed up system. Because screwed up systems are all screwed up in different ways.

    Another issue is that most common subs aren't really subs at all as they don't really function primarily in the sub region, they're add-on woofers. And low frequencies are actually somewhat more directional than the conventional wisdom would have you believe. If (for example) your "sub" has an HF cutoff over 120Hz then it's going to be affecting the lower frequencies of your guitars, pianos, and even lower male vocals. Low "E" on a guitar is 80Hz.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  18. #38
    Plays in Winger cover band Enjoys scratching self too much
    Join Date Sep 2007
    Location Toronto, cananda
    Posts 712
    Rep Power 536871052

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    i understand mixing is a moving target and that no one person is going to be listening on the same system as the next guy. Ive been around here long enough to have had the privilege of others wiser than myself to teach me things I wouldn't have understood if i never found this forum.

    For me, Im trying to mix to make things sound good on my system, thats it. The thing I'm trying to achieve is reveal weather or not my mixes are 'over-doing' it in the sub frequencies. the same way i would when I check/ mix in mono. nobodys mixing records entirely on auratones, or in mono alone, but people use them as a reference to see what their material will sound like on another system.

    has anyone ever put on a mix they did on a (decent) system with a sub that sounded completely off the mark from where they had it? keep in mind, I'm not biased one way or another, it just raises a question for me.

    As i said before, i sometimes wonder if I'm pushing it farther up on the harmonics of a frequency because thats what I can hear on my system, whereas I could be doing a smaller bump on the fundamental instead and getting a better result.

    im not here punting for 'mixing for iPhone/computer speakers, earbuds, intercoms, blah blah blah. Moving target or not, seems like systems that either have a sub or 'hype' that area are more prevalent than when I started listening. vehicle systems would be a good example of this, and the whole reason for me starting this thread was listening to recent mixes in a vehicle.
  19. #39
    Plays in Winger cover band Enjoys scratching self too much
    Join Date Sep 2007
    Location Toronto, cananda
    Posts 712
    Rep Power 536871052

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    And, John, i understand what your saying. I understand that they are 'add on woofers', but the speakers I'm using aren't exactly extending in the low-end. they're 5" and rear ported, and Ive heard that soffit mounting can help, but because of their size, i don't think they could serve any other purpose than near-fields.

    since they're is a decent amount of low end coming out the rear of the speakers, is there any other work-around to hearing that low end a bit more? as opposed to using a sub?

    thanks again guys, i know I'm beating a dead horse for most of you, just trying to plan things for the build. If i can avoid spending close to another $1000 on a sub, believe me, I'm all for it.
  20. #40
    Join Date Sep 2009
    Location Quake City
    Posts 11,770
    Rep Power 536871396

    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    And, John, i understand what your saying. I understand that they are 'add on woofers', but the speakers I'm using aren't exactly extending in the low-end. they're 5" and rear ported, and Ive heard that soffit mounting can help, but because of their size, i don't think they could serve any other purpose than near-fields.
    I seriously doubt it. The Phillip Newell book goes into soffit mounting quite extensively and I don't think it would be of any use in your situation. Soffit (actually a misnomer) mounting is something that's quite tricky to do right in the first place and I doubt it would be of much use with the type of speakers we're discussing anyway.


    since they're is a decent amount of low end coming out the rear of the speakers, is there any other work-around to hearing that low end a bit more? as opposed to using a sub?
    It's my impression that most rear ported speakers are intended to be used with a wall fairly close but not immediately behind them. Like a couple of inches, give or take. Hopefully the instructions that came with them will have suggestions for installation. If your situation does not allow the speakers to be mounted correctly relative to a real wall, perhaps some sort of hard reflective panel might help. Be aware that your low frequency cutoff will be determined by the area of the panel so just throwing up a couple little squares of plywood won't do.


    thanks again guys, i know I'm beating a dead horse for most of you, just trying to plan things for the build. If i can avoid spending close to another $1000 on a sub, believe me, I'm all for it.
    I'd spend the $1000 on better monitors. Might have to add a bit to it, dunno what you have now or what the trade-in value would be.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts