Thread: so, who's using subs?

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  1. #41
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    since they're is a decent amount of low end coming out the rear of the speakers, is there any other work-around to hearing that low end a bit more? as opposed to using a sub?

    thanks again guys, i know I'm beating a dead horse for most of you, just trying to plan things for the build. If i can avoid spending close to another $1000 on a sub, believe me, I'm all for it.
    Well, ultimately you'd better try different pair of monitors which would give you the sound you can work on.
    However, if you're happy with your current monitors in general and only want to check for things like low-end being bloated, you can try to find some good headphones. This works for me, but I guess it's really individual, even more so than choosing speakers. And it's close to impossible to mix on headphones. But to me it works to sort out the subs.
    When in doubt, mumble!

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  2. #42
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    ...I'd spend the $1000 on better monitors. Might have to add a bit to it, dunno what you have now or what the trade-in value would be.
    They're dynaudio bm5a mk2, to answer your question. And I'm happy with them so far. They image very well, and commercial mixes have revealed things i didn't previously hear. The strange thing is, I still can get a sense of the size of the low end on those records. Ive listened to them long before I started mixing on them, so I've 'broken them in' to my ears, so to speak.

    It's my impression that most rear ported speakers are intended to be used with a wall fairly close but not immediately behind them.
    The part I'm dealing with is getting the low end sounding close to the good low end i hear on those same records. Maybe it sounds close, but i think I might be eating up too much headroom boosting where i shouldn't be. In my old house, i built these diffusor type things that i sat behind the monitors (basically looked like giant spice racks, ill try and find a pic), but ill definitely try a more solid surface and see if that works better. you're suggesting a kind of LEDE type setup, yes? I was worried a solid surface, instead of an diffusor/absorber type, would skew things, but that was an experiment on my part.


    Well, ultimately you'd better try different pair of monitors which would give you the sound you can work on.
    However, if you're happy with your current monitors in general and only want to check for things like low-end being bloated, you can try to find some good headphones. This works for me, but I guess it's really individual, even more so than choosing speakers. And it's close to impossible to mix on headphones. But to me it works to sort out the subs.
    as for headphones, I'm using a set of akg k240's, and they seem to do the opposite. the low end i can hear ok, but it sounds like the high end is attenuated or something. could be an impedance mismatch, but whenever i check on them and adjust, the result is much brighter. The only other thing i use are apple earbuds, and their only use is to see whats distorting. I'm always running back and fourth to the truck to see if its the actual headphones distorting, or if I'm over-doing it in some way.
  3. #43
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    They're dynaudio bm5a mk2, to answer your question. And I'm happy with them so far. They image very well, and commercial mixes have revealed things i didn't previously hear. The strange thing is, I still can get a sense of the size of the low end on those records. Ive listened to them long before I started mixing on them, so I've 'broken them in' to my ears, so to speak.
    I'm running into the opposite with my BM12s. They have loads of low end and it swells in my room. I've done three mixes on them in the past 2 weeks and I had chopped the bass off at the knees on all three. Treatment for the room is in order.

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  4. #44
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    I'm running into the opposite with my BM12s. They have loads of low end and it swells in my room. I've done three mixes on them in the past 2 weeks and I had chopped the bass off at the knees on all three. Treatment for the room is in order.

    -r
    no kidding, must be tons of low end in those guys! even the ones i have, because the room i was using wasn't that big, I've experimented with rolling off some bottom end on their filters. have you played around with those, or did they still not remedy the problem?

    what size room are you in anyways? ill be dealing with room issues shortly also, but right now things are still in the planning stages. in the old house, I had decent results building these 10' X 4'X1' absorber/diffuser things that i put at either end of the room. Honestly though, never did a measurement or anything, just seemed to clean things up in the mix position.
  5. #45
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    as for headphones, I'm using a set of akg k240's, and they seem to do the opposite. the low end i can hear ok, but it sounds like the high end is attenuated or something. could be an impedance mismatch, but whenever i check on them and adjust, the result is much brighter. The only other thing i use are apple earbuds, and their only use is to see whats distorting. I'm always running back and fourth to the truck to see if its the actual headphones distorting, or if I'm over-doing it in some way.
    Which K240s?

    I have 2 pair; an old "made in Austria" K240 "monitor" pair, which are 600 ohms and a newer pair of K240 "studio" pair which are 55 ohms.

    I only use the 55 ohm ones. They do reveal things in the low end that I don't hear on the monitors, which are a pair of Event 20/20 with 8" woofers driven by a big custom made monitor amp from a long defunct commercial studio.

    I also play back at different levels and listen while walking in and out of the room, sometimes coming in from 2 rooms away.

    At some point I usually burn a CD and listen in the car which has a sub in the back.

    One of my brothers recently bought an expensive and excellent set of powered subs for his stereo; can't recall the make offhand. The crossover frequency is adjustable. I have yet to check any of my mixes on them, though.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

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  6. #46
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    K240 and K241 was a part of my headphonial journey. After that I found the Beyer DT535 and sincerely wondered why I never listened to anything but K241 for 15 years. After that I got a pair of DT770 which became studio standard. Had them at every station. Then I stumbled into the DT880 and came home.

    I know the Shure SRH940 is a bit better but they don't fit my head as good. And Eva is gonna get a pair so I can reference in them.

    God bless meat and chapels.

    PS Out of qabbalistic OCD I tried the DT990. Didn't like them
    Last edited by Knastratt; February 10th, 2016 at 12:50 PM. Reason: "Fit my mead" is a good one
  7. #47
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    DT880 also comes in two resistances, 250 and 600 ohms.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

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  8. #48
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    no kidding, must be tons of low end in those guys! even the ones i have, because the room i was using wasn't that big, I've experimented with rolling off some bottom end on their filters. have you played around with those, or did they still not remedy the problem?

    what size room are you in anyways? ill be dealing with room issues shortly also, but right now things are still in the planning stages. in the old house, I had decent results building these 10' X 4'X1' absorber/diffuser things that i put at either end of the room. Honestly though, never did a measurement or anything, just seemed to clean things up in the mix position.
    I've had good luck with the "homemade" absorbers. Basically rock-wool with a nice frame and pretty cloth on them. Putting them in the corners it makes a noticeable difference. I'm debating on what my permanent (or easily movable) solution will be.
    I may get kicked out of here for this...but I've had good luck with moving blankets. I grabbed a shit ton of those for hardly anything at the hardware store. I bough a kit that like smashes together brass ring to make an eyelet. I lined the edge with those and use shower curtain hooks to hang them where I need them. I've made a couple make shift stands to hold them up behind things, like a ribbon mic when I'm doing a guitar cab. I know that's super amateur hour, but I've had good luck with it.

    As for the EQ on my monitors, I've flipped the switches around just to see that they did something. But I wanted to see if I could address the room before going to the EQ. I don't know if that's the right way, but I couldn't shake John and nobby's voices saying EQing the monitors is all wrong. I assumed they were talking to me like Obi-Wan Kenobi and I'd better listen.

    My room is a little wonky shaped. Sort of like a capitol T. It's 21ft wide by 14 foot deep at the top of the T, then necks down to 12ft wide and keeps going back for probably 30ft or more. Ceilings are only 8ft tall.
    My desk is positioned a couple feet off the wall, at the center/top of the T. Trying to take advantage of the width and depth straight back. But in the corners of the T behind me, I get massive bass build up.
    I wanted to purchase my monitors before I did anything drastic with the room. Now that I've got them, I'll be putting some effort into that.

    The goal for my space now is to have a good room to mix in. I think that's achievable here and aligns with what I'd like to do with myself.
    As for recording, I record all over the house. Where ever I can make the floor space. The living room and dining room are big and two story vaulted ceilings. The wife is thrilled when I drag the dining room table out and set up a drum kit. There are much better spaces than mine, but I'll keep messing around because it's fun. If some young/poor bands/singers/vagrants want to record something here, we'll do our best with what I've got. If Whitney Houston or Allison Krause show up, I'll gladly take them to an actual studio. (hopefully I'll be able to discern Allison from a vagrant if the time comes)

    ... After that I got a pair of DT770 which became studio standard. Had them at every station. Then I stumbled into the DT880 and came home.
    ...
    PS Out of qabbalistic OCD I tried the DT990. Didn't like them
    I ran across a deal on some DT880's. I like them. They are smooth in comparison to my monitors. Things sound "better" on them than on my monitors. But I'm not sure my monitors/room are completely accurate right now though. (See my above issues) So I'm not sure what to make of that yet.
    They are incredibly comfortable. I lay in bed with them and listen to music with them a lot. It's easy to fall asleep with them on.

    I plan on putting at least one pare of the 770's in my vocal booth/guitar booth. However, I bought a Gibson Thunderbird on sort of a whim last week...without telling my wife first. So I probably wont be getting those for Valentines Day.

    -r
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  9. #49
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    880s are extremely detailed in the high end. The thing I have a problem with is their "smiley curve" overall sound, which makes the music sound more "distant" to me. Makes it hard to tell what's going on in the mids.

    otek
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    I don't know if that's the right way, but I couldn't shake John and nobby's voices saying EQing the monitors is all wrong. I assumed they were talking to me like Obi-Wan Kenobi and I'd better listen.
    That's not EXACTLY right - those switches are for a very specific purpose. When speakers are mounted in certain conditions - such as directly against a wall, in a two plane corner, or in a 3 plane corner, it causes a low end boost that is relative to the number of surfaces. Those switches should be designed to compensate for that increase in low end due to placement. It should explain all this in the manual

    (You thought you didn't need to RTFM for something as "simple" as a pair of speakers?)

    If used correctly, those EQ switches are simply counteracting EQ imposed by the geometry of the way they're mounted in the room. But you have to understand what they're for and how to use them correctly, and it helps to have some means of checking the frequency response of your installation - a measurement mic and analyzer software (or hardware.)
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    If Whitney Houston or Allison Krause show up, I'll gladly take them to an actual studio. (hopefully I'll be able to discern Allison from a vagrant if the time comes)

    If Whitney Houston or Allison Krause show up, call Ghost Busters ASAP.

    Houston died in her bathtub 4 years ago and Krause was shot dead by the Nat'l Guard in 1970 at Kent State University in Ohio. Neil Young wrote a song about it which was a hit for CSN&Y.

    Alison Krauss is probably not much more likely to show up at your house than the dead women, but if that happens, start a separate thread.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
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    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

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  12. #52
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    If Whitney Houston or Allison Krause show up, call Ghost Busters ASAP.

    Houston died in her bathtub 4 years ago and Krause was shot dead by the Nat'l Guard in 1970 at Kent State University in Ohio. Neil Young wrote a song about it which was a hit for CSN&Y.

    Alison Krauss is probably not much more likely to show up at your house than the dead women, but if that happens, start a separate thread.
    Ha. Well done, sir.

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  13. #53
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    Which K240s?
    they're the 55 ohm austrian ones, mkII.

    I also play back at different levels and listen while walking in and out of the room, sometimes coming in from 2 rooms away.
    Me too, I sometimes start playing back and leave the room right away at a certain point in the mix. For a while, it was just to rest the ears for a minute, but lately Ive noticed that if you can't hear instruments outside the room, usually they need a push, or visa-versa. Its one way I was attempting to check the sub levels, also.

    And as for the volume level while listening, I'm usually going fairly loud, not deafening, but enough that the the old neighbours would knock on my door every once in a while. Cant remember why, but it was likely someone on this forum that suggested it. Ive just found that If I'm not listening with the volume up pretty high, I tend to over-do things level-wise on my subgroups to compensate, and stuff gets crispy. I will hit the dim every once in a while, but thats about it.

    My room is a little wonky shaped. Sort of like a capitol T. It's 21ft wide by 14 foot deep at the top of the T, then necks down to 12ft wide and keeps going back for probably 30ft or more. Ceilings are only 8ft tall.
    My desk is positioned a couple feet off the wall, at the center/top of the T. Trying to take advantage of the width and depth straight back. But in the corners of the T behind me, I get massive bass build up.
    thats quite the interesting room you have there. If it goes that deep, I'm assuming its the basement? In the same boat over here too with regards to the ceiling height in the mix room. Not quite as long tho. Its an odd shape; kinda octagonal on one side, L shape on the other. still scratching my head about where to set things up, never mind how and what I'm going use to treat the room.

    Is it possible to blow out the rear walls of the "t" and make it more of a Y shape? I mean, is it drywall and studs, or is it masonry? Its a bit of work, but it could help with the low-end build up. Either that, or a slot wall resonator for the rear of the T could potentially help.

    Seriously though, so many options it makes my head spin sometimes...having said that, what makes you think you'd get 'kicked out' for suggesting packing blankets? they aren't exactly broadband, but I don't see anything wrong with anything that helps. Gotta work with what you have sometimes.

    The living room and dining room are big and two story vaulted ceilings. The wife is thrilled when I drag the dining room table out and set up a drum kit.
    our master bedroom is a decent size, and also has vaulted ceilings. Since we moved here, I joked with my girlfriend "i guess this is gonna be the tracking room, we can sleep in the basement". needless to say, she didn't share my enthusiasm. I did happen to have a couple cracks at a snare drum in there when she was at work and it sounded great! Guess ill have to wait for another weekend night shift to really put it through its paces but 2 storey vaulted ceilings, thats pretty sweet!
  14. #54
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    At some point I usually burn a CD and listen in the car which has a sub in the back.
    do you ever find that the lower end side is burying things in the mids/highs a bit? i know, it depends on the eq setting in the car, but even when set flat, a mix that sounds even on the monitors sounds a touch tubbier in the car for some reason. Not sure if the sub is the reason for that, or a lack of monitoring/checking on one is the culprit. That, and even though i print mixes around -12-10 rms, I have to crank the shit out of it in the car to hear it at a similar volume to a cd, but thats another discussion i suppose.
  15. #55
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    Well, car subs aren't exactly known for fidelity and car bodies themselves have lots of uneven resonances in the low end that can boost or attenuate various frequencies.

    How do commercial CDs sound on that car system?
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  16. #56
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    I have exactly ONE experience of auditioning my mixes in a car, and that damn near ruined a record for me.

    If you need to take your mixes elsewhere to check translation, make sure you are familiar with those listening environments, too.


    otek
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  17. #57
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    I have exactly ONE experience of auditioning my mixes in a car, and that damn near ruined a record for me.

    If you need to take your mixes elsewhere to check translation, make sure you are familiar with those listening environments, too.


    otek
    How did it almost ruin a record? Just too time consuming going back and fourth, or more of a 'second guessing' type scenario?

    I'm not suggesting 'mixing in the car', but you never take a mix to the car to check ever? Is there anything you do check on outside your room?

    And john, yes. I'm pretty used to how my car system sounds. Its an hour commute each way which gives me a bit of time to listen. Commercial CD's and radio sound as they should. Its probably me boosting somewhere I shouldn't be. Ah well, live and learn I guess.
    Last edited by mclights; February 17th, 2016 at 12:44 AM. Reason: auto-correct took a shit..."cummute", wtf
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  18. #58
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    I have exactly ONE experience of auditioning my mixes in a car, and that damn near ruined a record for me.
    Time to ditch the '76 Yugo

    Seriously, as long as you are checking the mix in the car and not mixing it in the car, I don't see a problem, paticularly if you are familiar with the way finished, professionally mastered tracks sound in it.

    My mixes translate a lot better to car stereo than they did a few years ago. That has to do with more familiarity with my monitoring setup, training my ear for what to listen for and getting better balances, not better or different gear.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

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    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

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  19. #59
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    Bless me father, for I have sinned. I have used questionable (alternate) monitoring practices with dual subs. Without protection.

    The thing is that better near-fields are on my list but the piggy bank refills slowly And... at one point it consistently translated with an untamed low end.

    So being somewhat the other kind of engineer, I set up a crossover, measured the distances, "calibrated" the (2.2?) alternate setup with dual 12" woofers" using one of those special subwoofer measurement tracks, an SPL meter, and some cool looking software. The room is about 25x21x9, the near-fields are on sand filled stands about 3' from the front wall with subs adjacent. They are 5' from each other and on an equilateral triangle with the listening position a third of the way into the room. As best I can tell from the math, I'm avoiding the nastier room modes and I could the bass hear NOW by golly, and so... translation issues swung towards brittleness, sigh.

    The things we do. Amazingly, I couldn't DIY something cheap to compete with the top (or even mid level) monitors. Duyhh...I diagnosed the problem as a screw loose in the operator. I used that HF adjustment setting on the back of my near-fields. And adjusted my brain some for now. Anyone want to part with some focals out of pity?
    Last edited by Southfork; February 16th, 2016 at 07:58 PM.
  20. #60
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    Default Re: so, who's using subs?

    translation issues swung towards brittleness, sigh.
    That's the typical problem with added subs - they fool you into thinking you have more low end than you really do on a normal system so the mix comes out too bright or brittle.

    The things we do. Amazingly, I couldn't DIY something cheap to compete with the top (or even mid level) monitors.
    The elephant in the room when it comes to designing your own speakers is crossover design. You can use the exact same drivers in a similar box to a good commercial design but if you don't get the crossovers right they won't sound right - and design of good crossovers is a semi-black art that involves a lot of trial and error. I've known people who got into speaker design and it really isn't easy. And design and construction of a good box is somewhat harder than it might seem as well. There are lots of details that seem unimportant that really are.
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????

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