1. #1
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    Default Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    In the past decade, an enormous reallocation of revenue of perhaps $50 billion a year has taken place, with economic value moving from creators of content to owners of monopoly platforms.

    I reached this conclusion from the following statistics: Since 2000, recorded music revenues in the United States have fallen to $7.2 billion per year from $19.8 billion. Home entertainment video revenue fell to $18 billion in 2014 from $24.2 billion in 2006. United States newspaper ad revenue fell to $23.6 billion in 2013 from $65.8 billion in 2000.

    And yet, by every available metric, people are consuming more music, video, news and books. During that same period, Google’s revenue grew to $74.5 billion from $400 million.
    The former editor of The Guardian, Alan Rusbridger, estimated that Facebook had “sucked up $27 million” of the paper’s projected digital advertising revenue in the last year by essentially keeping Guardian readers on Facebook, rather than linking them to the Guardian site.

    “They are taking all the money,” he noted. “They have algorithms we don’t understand, which are a filter between what we do and how people receive it.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/op...tml?ref=oembed

    .
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    You beat me to it!
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  3. #3
    Most friends are "on the inside". Skank Muffin
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    I heard an interesting quote by an engineer/mixer recently that basically said this. Music acts are more likely to get signed if their as popular as cat videos these days. It has no bearing on their musical talent.

    I'm paraphrasing, but if that's true for social media, I guess it fits the topic.

    Remember when ugly bands were popular?
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    That will remain the case until there is a new generation of promoters and venues so that kids get to experience live music.
    Bob's room 615 562-4346
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    "We hear what we see." - Doris Day
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    The gist of it certainly seems credible.

    How much of it are you prepared to refute?
    .
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  7. #7
    D minor, the saddest of keys! Wing Commander!!
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    The gist of it certainly seems credible.

    How much of it are you prepared to refute?
    .

    Most of it.
    Start at the top of the article:
    Define a monopoly. My definition is where you have a dominant market share, and you're abusing it, and customers have no reasonable alternative.

    By my understanding of the US telecoms market, AT&T fits all 3. Dominant market share, and trying to be much bigger. Steadily increasing fees and "below the line" charges and imposing caps. In far too many cases you have no alternative if you want internet or phone service, and I doubt you can argue that life can be tough without at least a phone. The service is largely crappy too, especially if you're dependent on "legacy" technology such as ADSL for internet. They perform poorly in customer satisfaction surveys.

    Facebook and Google have a dominant market share. But where is the abuse? They''re giving people what they ask for, and largely for free. (Copyright arguments are later in the article, we'll get to them.) And for Google at least, you have equally workable alternatives that are only a mouse-click away. (I prefer duck-duck-go for search.) We've seen once dominant social platforms such as Myspace wither when someone built something better, and the same will happen to Facebook and Google if they don't pay attention to their users. Unlike telecoms, the barriers to market entry are very low.

    So if anyone needs attention from the Senate Judiciary Antitrust Subcommittee, it's AT&T.
    "We hear what we see." - Doris Day
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    Astrological sign is "Feces"! Prefers rhythm cowbell to lead
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    I understand Vaudeville is blaming RCA for it's downfall.
    Rednecks call me a Tree Hugger and Tree Huggers call me a Redneck...I must be doing something right to piss everyone off.
  9. #9
    Most friends are "on the inside". Skank Muffin
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    Before, it seemed like being a good band would get you noticed. Now all you have to do is strap a bunch of fire works to your back and light it up to be a celebrity. I guess that's what people wanna see.
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    How much of that do you believe?
    How much DON'T you believe?" And why?
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  11. #11
    D minor, the saddest of keys! Wing Commander!!
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    How much DON'T you believe?" And why?
    As I said, most of it. And I've also said the first part of the "why".
    "We hear what we see." - Doris Day
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    Most of it.
    Start at the top of the article:
    Define a monopoly. My definition is where you have a dominant market share, and you're abusing it, and customers have no reasonable alternative.

    By my understanding of the US telecoms market, AT&T fits all 3. Dominant market share, and trying to be much bigger. Steadily increasing fees and "below the line" charges and imposing caps. In far too many cases you have no alternative if you want internet or phone service, and I doubt you can argue that life can be tough without at least a phone. The service is largely crappy too, especially if you're dependent on "legacy" technology such as ADSL for internet. They perform poorly in customer satisfaction surveys.
    No. AT&T has major competition in all areas from Concast (not a typo) and competition in the telco market from a number of companies. Landline telcos are of little importance these days and there are myriad cellular providers, big and small, all actively (and successfully) competing for market share.

    Thia is not true of the internet companies,l which are aggressively cannibalizing all other realms of media and entertainment. There's Google (Alphabet), Farcebook, Apple (not doing quite as well as they'd like) and who else?

    Both Google and Facebook operate illegally and refuse to pay fair royalties to content owners. Google pays less than any other distributor despite their status as #2 and Facebook, currently #1, refuses to pay anything at all. Both are "untouchable" due to their huge budgets not only for legal, registered lobbying but also for funds filtered trough allegedly "independent" organizations, educational institutions, think tanks, and individuals via so-called "philanthropic" grants. For example, Google functionally (but not legally) owns the vastly influential site Wikipedia via the ploy of matching all contributions to the site 1 for 1. You can't tell me that contributing half the operating budget does not give them an ironclad say in the sites editorial positions (encyclopedias aren't supposed to have editorial positions but Wikipedia sure does, as shown by their virulent and dishonest campaigning against the Sopa and Pipa antipiracy bills.) And Google gets a "charitable" tax deduction for it on top of everything else!
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  13. #13
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    By my understanding of the US telecoms market, AT&T fits all 3. Dominant market share, and trying to be much bigger.
    No, there are a couple of other giants, Verizon and Comcast.

    No doubt they are all trying to get bigger. But there aren't 3 Googles or 3 Facebooks. I can't get AT&T here other than wireless where it goes head-to-head with Sprint and Verizon. For cable/ fiberoptic/ copper I have a choice of Verizon or Cablevision. And there's also satellite.

    Steadily increasing fees and "below the line" charges and imposing caps. In far too many cases you have no alternative if you want internet or phone service, and I doubt you can argue that life can be tough without at least a phone. The service is largely crappy too, especially if you're dependent on "legacy" technology such as ADSL for internet. They perform poorly in customer satisfaction surveys.
    The crappiness of the service depends on the type of service, but it's all about squeezing the maximum profit out of the existing infrastructure. After spending a lot of time waiting to speak with a Sprint rep because longer waiting periods are the results of wanting fewer employees to pay, and listening to shitty background music interspersed with harsh Sprint commercials, the gist of what the guy told me was that the reason that when I called my colleague, whose phone, on the same plan, was on, and had my call forwarded to voice mail was essentially that Spring had overextended its bandwith in order to have more paying customers to screw.

    Facebook and Google have a dominant market share. But where is the abuse? They''re giving people what they ask for, and largely for free. (Copyright arguments are later in the article, we'll get to them.)
    No, if the subject is abuse we'll start with them.

    And for Google at least, you have equally workable alternatives that are only a mouse-click away. (I prefer duck-duck-go for search.)

    I use DDG also but for some things google is just a better search engine. Yeah, I know, my sig but my land line provider/ ISP is Verizon, and the big ISPs are dispicable as well. What are you gonna do?
    We've seen once dominant social platforms such as Myspace wither when someone built something better, and the same will happen to Facebook and Google if they don't pay attention to their users. Unlike telecoms, the barriers to market entry are very low.
    First of all, making it scale would require a massive investment. Google has paid large fines for the air pollution the giant diesel generators for its massive servers makes. Facebook learned from Myspace's mistakes.

    And, ironically, one of the reasons for the "low barriers to market entry" is largely because Facebook and Google don't pay for content. I'm still waiting for them to bankroll movies, or something, but why should they?
    So if anyone needs attention from the Senate Judiciary Antitrust Subcommittee, it's AT&T.
    No, it's Google, but it's already too late as it has its tentacles in the highest goverment positions already in the US. It's well documented if you want to take a gander.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  14. #14
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    As I said, most of it. And I've also said the first part of the "why".
    Don, you don't know what you're talking about. You really need to come live in the real world for awhile.

    Sorry, buddy, but it's true. You're like the proverbial ostrich with its head in the sand, except that I understand that ostriches don't actually DO that.... Of course as major customers for the products of your employer, they've got you firmly in their pocket as well. And that's the major part of "why"...
    http://www.johnnyoklahoma.com/

    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
    Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
    The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
    Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
  15. #15
    D minor, the saddest of keys! Wing Commander!!
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    Don, you don't know what you're talking about. You really need to come live in the real world for awhile.

    Sorry, buddy, but it's true. You're like the proverbial ostrich with its head in the sand, except that I understand that ostriches don't actually DO that.... Of course as major customers for the products of your employer, they've got you firmly in their pocket as well. And that's the major part of "why"...
    Last first... you certainly got that wrong. Companies like Google aren't the target market for my employer. AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, T-Mobile etc are. I've explained this to you before, for example:
    http://thewombforums.com/showthread....826#post340826

    As for living in the "real world", I certainly live in a different world than most of the folks here. It's as real as yours, and has a much larger population, so labelling me as out of touch won't wash.
    "We hear what we see." - Doris Day
  16. #16
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    On who's the abusive monopoly:
    ...
    I use DDG also but for some things google is just a better search engine. Yeah, I know, my sig but my land line provider/ ISP is Verizon, and the big ISPs are dispicable as well. What are you gonna do?...
    My point exactly.

    On barriers to entry and disruptive technologies:
    First of all, making it scale would require a massive investment. Google has paid large fines for the air pollution the giant diesel generators for its massive servers makes. Facebook learned from Myspace's mistakes. ...
    The investment scales with market share. For example, eBay is rarely used in this country nowadays. The local online auction site, Trademe, has the market sewn up. They started on a laptop in Sam Morgan's bedroom.


    ... And, ironically, one of the reasons for the "low barriers to market entry" is largely because Facebook and Google don't pay for content. I'm still waiting for them to bankroll movies, or something, but why should they? ...
    Indeed. People are happy to provide them content for free. (We'll get to copyright infringing content later, like the NY Times article does.)

    No, it's Google, but it's already too late as it has its tentacles in the highest goverment positions already in the US. It's well documented if you want to take a gander.
    And AT&T, Verizon et al don't? Isn't lobbying a large part of doing (big) business in the US?

    It's also an area that indirectly affects my livelihood. For example, look at the state and municipal laws restricting competition in broadband infrastructure, bought (and in some cases written) by telcos to protect "their" turf. The US is rapidly falling behind in fibre rollout as a result.
    "We hear what we see." - Doris Day
  17. #17
    D minor, the saddest of keys! Wing Commander!!
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    No. AT&T has major competition in all areas from Concast (not a typo) and competition in the telco market from a number of companies. Landline telcos are of little importance these days and there are myriad cellular providers, big and small, all actively (and successfully) competing for market share.
    ... and they're all reselling services from AT&T, Comcast etc because the cost of setting up your own network is so high. There is a big problem with that. I'm surprised you don't see it.

    ...Both Google and Facebook operate illegally and refuse to pay fair royalties to content owners. Google pays less than any other distributor despite their status as #2 and Facebook, currently #1, refuses to pay anything at all....
    "Later, Mabel, later". I said we'll get to that bit.

    Both are "untouchable" due to their huge budgets not only for legal, registered lobbying but also for funds filtered trough allegedly "independent" organizations, educational institutions, think tanks, and individuals via so-called "philanthropic" grants. For example, Google functionally (but not legally) owns the vastly influential site Wikipedia via the ploy of matching all contributions to the site 1 for 1. You can't tell me that contributing half the operating budget does not give them an ironclad say in the sites editorial positions (encyclopedias aren't supposed to have editorial positions but Wikipedia sure does, as shown by their virulent and dishonest campaigning against the Sopa and Pipa antipiracy bills.) And Google gets a "charitable" tax deduction for it on top of everything else!
    How is that grounds for an antitrust action? Are they doing bad stuff with all that influence? And as I said to Nobby, the big telcos are just as active in lobbying and influencing.
    "We hear what we see." - Doris Day
  18. #18
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook

    As for living in the "real world", I certainly live in a different world than most of the folks here. It's as real as yours, and has a much larger population, so labelling me as out of touch won't wash.
    I thought you lived in NZ. Did you move?
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  19. #19
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook


    The investment scales with market share. For example, eBay is rarely used in this country nowadays. The local online auction site, Trademe, has the market sewn up. They started on a laptop in Sam Morgan's bedroom.
    And moved to his living room? Let me know if it gets market share outside of NZ. Ebay isn't shaking in its boots quite yet.


    Indeed. People are happy to provide them content for free.
    Including other people's content which they don't have the rights to.

    We'll get to copyright infringing content later, like the NY Times article does.)
    No, you're stonewalling.


    And AT&T, Verizon et al don't? Isn't lobbying a large part of doing (big) business in the US?
    No, they don't have people at the top layers of government. All the big companies have lobbyists but they don't have government appointees like Google does.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  20. #20
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    Default Re: Forget AT&T. The Real Monopolies Are Google and Facebook


    How is that grounds for an antitrust action? Are they doing bad stuff with all that influence?
    Absolutely, as we have explained over and over.
    And as I said to Nobby, the big telcos are just as active in lobbying and influencing.
    And as I explained before, you're wrong about that.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle

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