Thread: MiX iT! 2f - Discuss It: Part 1

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  1. #41
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    But How is it making the levels the same? Are you certain it's not using some form of compression to do so?
    It analyses the average loudness of each track and applies an overall gain increase or reduction depending on the result. It doesn't alter the sound, it just turns the volume up or down on a per track basis.

    It's similar to ReplayGain (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index....tle=Replaygain), in fact I suspect Apple may have used some of the same techniques.
  2. #42
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    Nope. No compression. Level matching.

    Remember this isn't done in real time. The songs are on your hard drive + the computer can look @ them in advance of playing them. It scans each song, measures for apparent volume, and adjusts the playback level of each track accordingly.

    Apple does say, "Any boosts in playback volume are protected against clipping by iTunes' built-in limiter." But when I use sound check it simply turns DOWN each of the files to match them. So, I've never experienced the limiter kicking in.

    iTunes: About Sound Check (from Apple)

    iTunes' Sound Check and you (from MacWorld)

    There's also a 3rd party level matching algorithm called Replay Gain that is gaining a lot of momentum in many other media players like foobar2000, MediaMonkey, Winamp, etc that you should check out. Replay Gain is also available for iTunes as iVolume, but unfortunately it doesn't work on songs purchased from the iTunes store.

    Replay Gain's main advantage over Sound Check is that it has an option to adjust the volume on a album by album basis, maintaining the internal dynamics of each album. Sound Check currently adjusts the volume only on a song by song basis, which makes quiet songs on albums the same volume as the loud ones.
    Last edited by Charles Dye; January 7th, 2008 at 03:07 PM.
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  3. #43
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1


    Apple does say, "Any boosts in playback volume are protected against clipping by iTunes' built-in limiter."
    Hmmm...
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    nizzle, I type all that shit in response to your question + you respond to THAT?!

    Did you read the next sentence?

    I believe what Apple is referring to is IF you use iTunes built-in EQ to adjust the output volume of iTunes beyond 0 dB that THEN the limiter would probably kick in.

    But a limiter is not used as apart of Sound Check. The audio data in your music files is never changed. Only the metadata is altered, so when the file plays back it's apparent volume will be matched to all the other tracks in iTunes.
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Post It: Mix, File + Description

    For me, it is very difficult to listen to this song with a fresh perspective after mixing it.

    So far, I like Captain Hook's mix (good balance), Chris J's (even though it is very dry), and I like evil Jack's guitars.
  6. #46
    once played a seventh chord in a folk song Saw Yentle 46 times
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    But a limiter is not used as apart of Sound Check.
    Actually, that's not quite true. Sound check *could* in very rare circumstances trigger the limiter, but it would have to be a *very* quiet track with some huge peaks! I can guarantee none of the MiXiT submitted mixes come close to this.

    Only knightsy's original mix has a significant gain increase (if 2.5db is significant!) from replaygain, and the peaks are still nowhere near clipping.
    Last edited by danbee; January 7th, 2008 at 04:35 PM.
  7. #47
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    Yeah, it would have to be quiet as shit. Like an Avg RMS of -20 dBfs. (For comparison, most modern releases have an Avg RMS of -6 dBfs, whereas records in the 80s were @ about -16 dBfs.)

    I'd like to read more about it, if ya got a link, doodbee.

    But in all practical terms w/ probably almost any type of commercial music (except jazz or classical) I would guess the limiter would NEVER kick in.
    Last edited by Charles Dye; January 7th, 2008 at 05:38 PM.
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    In what way does the same song sound different?
    They all had this mangled high mid digital crunchy thing going on, but do you think I can get it to do it again now? No..of course not.

    Anyway, whatever it was, a reboot seems to have cured it.

    Todd
  9. #49
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    ...Dynamik Studios – Drums were too up front for me. I’d like to hear a fuller bass and have the Gtr/Keys pushed up a lot. Liked the blend of the Tele/Vox and normal vox on the last chorus....
    Thanks for the suggestions. I knew about the bass and the keys already. I just wasn't able to go back to fix it, since school's starting back up again. I was having issues figuring out what to do with the guitar in the first verse to differentiate it from the bass more.

    I've listened to all the submissions and the 2 I like the most so far are Baeli's and Evil Jack's. I'm listening to the mixes on AKG K240's.

    I think that Baeli's mix stands out the most. The high hats sound so great. I need to check out that session to see how the overheads were done to make it sound so nice. I'm not to big on the sound of the snare. The section after "Senior I'm in love with your daughter senior oh" at around 2:00 I felt there was a buildup in the song that went nowhere. Using automation to raise the level of the guitars up a db may help with it. I'm not sure though.

    Evil Jack's mix sounds so big. The strings are fairly upfront, but don't challenge the vocals for your attention. I would have liked the vocal to be turned up slightly. At 1:10 when the vocal kicks back in it sounds to far in the mix until everything dies down. Either raising the vocal throughout the mix or automating the vocal in that part would be good. I liked the delay at about 1:50 on the vocal.
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    nizzle, I type all that shit in response to your question + you respond to THAT?!

    Did you read the next sentence?

    I believe what Apple is referring to is IF you use iTunes built-in EQ to adjust the output volume of iTunes beyond 0 dB that THEN the limiter would probably kick in.

    But a limiter is not used as apart of Sound Check. The audio data in your music files is never changed. Only the metadata is altered, so when the file plays back it's apparent volume will be matched to all the other tracks in iTunes.
    Whoa there......Slow down. I did read the next sentence....I do appreciate the response. Wasn't being "snarky" at all.....I went to Apple and read the same thing you posted....The "Hmmm" simpy implies that there may be a limiter instantiated upon playback. I don't know precisely how this algorithm does it's thing w/ re: to the limiter, though you postulate a very reasonable possibility....BUT, in the interest of a "quasi-critical listen" - it seems reasonable to me to maybe leave that little box unchecked....Do I have it checked when I play my 4 day shuffle playlist - Shit Yeah. Do I uncheck it when I listen to mixes - yes BUT - in all honesty, I just open a quicktime player instead - so I don't have to deal with importing it into my library, waiting for the thing to open up, blah blah blah...

    Pal(permit me to use the term),

    What you do here is pretty great and your gracious with your time....I get it. I certainly meant no offense.

    -t
  11. #51
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    Whoa there......Slow down. I did read the next sentence....I do appreciate the response. Wasn't being "snarky" at all.....
    Oh... I guess I was tho. oops

    Sorry. I was clearly projecting. I had just finished listening to my debate with Mixerman about analog v. digital for an upcoming MMRS radio show. I musta been a little punchie.

    No offense taken.
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    From what I heard till now, I like the most Jakob's mix. Sounds very natural to me.(Jakob, what happened to strings at 0:15-0:17? You were too lazy, aren't you?)
    ChrisJ's mix sounds nice but I don't like vocals. It sounds as they were not the part of this song. They are too dry and loud imo. Evil Jack, yeah, guitars glued with strings, nice big sound. There are few others too, but I need more time to listen to. Cool thread. So many different approaches..... We can learn a lot here.
    Last edited by princeton; January 7th, 2008 at 07:57 PM. Reason: Fgt. smthg.
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    The snare sound is quick to tell me if I like a mix or not... its funny, I didn't think it would be for me, but that intro really gives a quick birdseye into whether or not I'll like a mix.

    I haven't listened to all of 'em yet, but most of em so far.
    These are the ones that have jumped out at me:

    Captain Hook (perhaps the best balance of any thus far!)
    DeMontague
    Studjo
    Doold
    Meloco_go (for the awesome intro, and the rest ain't bad either!)
  14. #54
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    I'd like to read more about it, if ya got a link, doodbee.
    Good overview of Replaygain on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replay_Gain

    More good info on the HydrogenAudio wiki: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index....tle=Replaygain

    And the original standard proposal, sadly not quite up to date anymore, but a good resource anyhow: http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/
  15. #55
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    I'm curious what Studjo did to the vocals. A combination of heavy EQ + compression? There's gotta be something else... they sound so cool and pinched and almost crooner-esque.
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    Maarten1945 – Thin vers1. Other than Vox the tracks sound distant to me. Mix didn’t gel for me.
    Thanks for listening to and commenting on all those mixes Baeli. I still have to take the time to sit down with them myself.

    I recognize the missing 'gel'. Always find that difficult and hope to pick up some tips and practices in these discussions.

    There is definitely a difference between the vox and other tracks regarding the amount of reverb I put on. Little on the Vox (more delay than reverb on it) and more of a room reverb on the rest. Although I didn't perceive it as more distant myself. I might try to balance the rev/delay on the tracks a bit more. Maybe it provides a bit more of that gel as well.

    The thin verse 1 might be caused by the fact that it is the only verse in which I didn't use the vox double. I thought not doing that on the first verse might give a bit of a build up, but maybe it is too much of a difference.

    Thanks for your comments,
    Maarten
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    Good overview of Replaygain on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replay_Gain

    More good info on the HydrogenAudio wiki: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index....tle=Replaygain

    And the original standard proposal, sadly not quite up to date anymore, but a good resource anyhow: http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/
    doodBEE... I meant about the limiter on iTunes.

    I linked to the wikipedia article in my post + the hydrogen audio RPG section is awesome.

    Where did you read about the iTunes limiter + the fact that it kicks in if the music is soft? I'd like to read about it.

    Thnx!
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    Oh... I guess I was tho. oops

    Sorry. I was clearly projecting. I had just finished listening to my debate with Mixerman about analog v. digital for an upcoming MMRS radio show. I musta been a little punchie.

    No offense taken.

    Right back atcha....I gotta be more careful when I post....I mean, I AM a prick, it's just that I'd prefer people realize it only after they meet me in person.

    Glad your not sore.

    -t
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    I mean, I AM a prick, it's just that I'd prefer people realize it only after they meet me in person.


    + I'm an asshole... I just (usually) try to not type like one.
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2 - Discuss It: Part 1

    I'm curious what Studjo did to the vocals. A combination of heavy EQ + compression? There's gotta be something else... they sound so cool and pinched and almost crooner-esque.
    thanks man - I haven't done much to the vocals actually. I EQ-ed only the louder vocals for more air and bussed all vocals through one side of a Buzz SOC comp - that one wasn't working that hard acutally - I kinda dug the sound of the vocals on the harddrive so I didn't feel like I have to mangle them too much.

    I could give you guys the exact treatement with numbers when I'm at the studio if you wish

    Jo

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