Thread: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

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  1. #21
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Of course mixing is also about HOW you choose to put all the techniques together. So, we should also discuss the WHY behind the choices made, between the various techniques that could've been used for each instrument, and the one that was finally chosen.
    Which is the hardest thing to me! Would like to hear more on that.
    When in doubt, mumble!

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  2. #22
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Dino,


    My first observations concerning your recall.


    First off ... good job already ... your recall stems sound much better then the original ones but imo you're not there yet and I'm sure you can pull more out of it.

    1. Listen to how dynamic CH's stem mix is. And compare it to yours which is already quite squashed. The easiest and most obvious spot to compare is like 17 seconds into the song. Listen how nice CH's Bass helps drive the beat. And then compare to yours ... it doesn't drive the beat.

    Now this is imho not only due to whatever processing you have on the bass. It's a level issue and an overall compression issue. Do you have a limiter on the master ? if so ... get rid of it. Don't overuse buss compression at this point ... in fact ... try to get the sound without bus compression.

    2. When I listen to your bass stem it becomes more clear I think ... there way too much 'rumble' there which is - when compressing it even more so - eats up all your dynamic space.

    I'd say loose the distortion for now and try to get a clean sound. Then maybe double the bass track to ass distortion but High pass that one before you compress it so you can add distortion to the higher frequency part of the bass instead of the entire bandwith. That one you can compress fairly much imo ad then blend in with the original.

    I'm just blind guessing here as to what kind of processing is happening there but the bass stem clearly tells me that it is one of the 'problems'.

    3. OH ... again ... guessing here but afai can tell the direct sounds are pretty much ok for now ... but your overheads ...

    When listening to the drums only stem you can hear the kick 'flam' ... double hits. This can be a bunch of things. One thing can be that there's a alignment problem through for example lack of delay compensation ... does your system have delay compensation ? If not you need to be very careful to either process all the drum tracks with the same plugins or time align the ones that are not processed.

    As far as level between direct signals and OH's ... well ... subjective but in CH's mix I think the direct signals are a bit more prominent then in yours.


    Again ... the recall is already a success as it is ... but I think you can push it an extra edge to improve even more ... I know you mention it's just a scratch but maybe these comments can help .....



    Chris
  3. #23
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Dino ~ would it be possible to post a D&B stem with no
    spatial processing?

    And list all your plugs and settings as they stand now for
    drums and bass? I'll leave playing the game blind to matt damon.

    Also, the output of your revised stem seems quite hot.
    If there's a limiter, bin it like chris said.
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Dino ~ would it be possible to post a D&B stem with no
    spatial processing?

    And list all your plugs and settings as they stand now for
    drums and bass? I'll leave playing the game blind to matt damon.

    Also, the output of your revised stem seems quite hot.
    If there's a limiter, bin it like chris said.
    I will put a D&B stem with no spatial stuff up and work on a list of plugs and settings for ya.

    No limiter...there is a little compression across the master though. I had typically been getting output that was not as hot....if you listen to my original mix, it is a lot lower than many others. As I bounced the stems I opened the console view in Sonar and it occurred to me to try pushing the MOTU interface output up and low and behold the output of the export was much hotter. I actually brought the master down some after doing that. I was under the impression that the interface output was just that...the output from Sonar into the MOTU for playback. Not so..... I am not sure if this is obvious to other folks or not, but I would not have thought the output from Sonar to the interface would have a bearing on the audio export.

    I was fairly careful to check all of the busses for clipping, but I did not bypass the plugs and check. I will do that as well just to see if there is something there.
    We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. --Decca Recording Company, on rejecting the Beatles in 1962


  5. #25
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Okay...so here is Bass & Drums Recall2 with all of the spatial effects muted and some additional tweaks to the EQ on the snare and gate, EQ and compression on the Kick. I also muted the distortion on the Bass condenser track.

    Also attached are screen shots of the plugs on the Kick and Snare....(other ones will follow in the next post).
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Attached Files
    We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. --Decca Recording Company, on rejecting the Beatles in 1962


  6. #26
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    ....and now the shots of the OH, Toms and Bass tracks as well as the FX on the Bass sub-mix.
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. --Decca Recording Company, on rejecting the Beatles in 1962


  7. #27
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Here are the jpegs zipped....looks like they got downsized in the upload and may not be readable.
    Attached Files
    We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. --Decca Recording Company, on rejecting the Beatles in 1962


  8. #28
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Dino ~ thanks! I will check all this out today.
    Last edited by Charles Dye; January 30th, 2008 at 01:38 AM. Reason: moved digital clipping stuff to other thread.
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

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  9. #29
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    To Dino ~

    These screen shots are very helpful.

    This is just my opinion, but there seems to be an awful lot of processing going on in your mix.

    Not that there's anything wrong with using a lot of plugs, but if you're a beginner, like you claim to be, moderation may be the key.

    You might want to consider limiting yourself to 5 instances of the SSL Waves channel strip for the ENTIRE MIX. Seriously.

    It's hard to juggle 30 plugs at once and get a mix gelling... you end up spending too much time under the microscope and not enough standing on the ladder. Know what I mean?
    Last edited by norman_damon; January 29th, 2008 at 09:29 PM.
  10. #30
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    The digital clipping discussion has been moved here.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    To Dino ~

    These screen shots are very helpful.

    This is just my opinion, but there seems to be an awful lot of processing going on in your mix.

    Not that there's anything wrong with using a lot of plugs, but if you're a beginner, like you claim to be, moderation may be the key.

    You might want to consider limiting yourself to 5 instances of the SSL Waves channel strip for the ENTIRE MIX. Seriously.

    It's hard to juggle 30 plugs at once and get a mix gelling... you end up spending too much time under the microscope and not enough standing on the ladder. Know what I mean?
    +1
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

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  12. #32
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    One thing I'm curious about is how many groups or "stems" you guys used, and why.

    I basically just used a drums bus and a vox bus other than the main, although if I did a recall, I might use a guitar group as well. (I can see the merit of MacGregor's doubling and hard panning the gat tracks as they were a "handful" with the different functions and level changes).

    I'm used to (well sort of) using a more limited platform (AW4416) than what I'm using on the MIXIT projects (Sonar 6 PE) and with 16 tracks to mix down from, I'd have to bounce the drums down to stereo (as well as BGVs, if any) just to have enough tracks left over for the other stuff.

    I can definitely see the merit in being able to control drums, lead vox, BGVs, strings, and horns by assigning them each to their own bus in order to control their relative levels within the mix and to process them as separate groups.

    But having a "bass guitar stem" just kinda sounds funny. On MIXIT2 I mainly used the DI bass track and just feathered in the mic'd tracks a little bit for definition. I didn't process them alike though.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

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  13. #33
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    To be clear, these stems are for the purpose of allowing all of us to hear how Dino + CH's mixes sound with instruments soloed up in various groups.

    They may have processed each stem thru some type of buss processing. But that is not @ all why we are asking for them that way.

    Hope this helps.
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  14. #34
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    To be clear, these stems are for the purpose of allowing all of us to hear how Dino + CH's mixes sound with instruments soloed up in various groups.

    They may have processed each stem thru some type of buss processing. But that is not @ all why we are asking for them that way.

    Hope this helps.
    Alrighty. Thanks for clearing up the confusion.
    Man! You have GOT to try a hit of this RANGE SUNSHINE!

    IMTBO = In My Thoroughly Biased Opinion
    CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
    Never underestimate the amount of contempt a failed musician has for those of us who are still trying.
    If the party's good enough, you can actually suck to a remarkable degree.

    Greedle
  15. #35
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Sorry Dino and others, been quite sick.
    Just getting over it now and will be back on this soon!
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

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  16. #36
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Hope you get to feeling better!

    Just a heads up...I will be out-of-town and away from my studio Tuesday - Thursday this week, so I won't be able to work on the mix. I may try to export the session or part of it to my laptop so I have it with me, but I don't think it has the power to open it completely with the plugs etc... I will definitely be checking in here though.
    We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. --Decca Recording Company, on rejecting the Beatles in 1962


  17. #37
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Ok Dino.

    I'm liking the no 'spatial' stem so we'll start there for now.
    We'll add some ambience once we address the drumkit processing.

    As others have pointed out, there seems to be a lot of it. (processing).
    I also noticed something 'odd' on the kick.
    With one eq, the waves req6 you're boosting 300 by 10db.
    And 400 a couple too.
    But on the SSL you're cutting a couble DB at 300 then on
    the SSL channel, cutting 800ish by 15db although quite narrow.
    Although boosting 8k by 15db may work for CLA, i suggest
    removing all 4 eq and comp plugs, and choosing one eq and
    comp.

    Get rid of the tape sim and gate too for now.
    We can add them if you feel it needs after.

    You can assume we'll do this for everything actually.
    Have an a eq and comp for kick, snare, toms, ohs
    but for bass, buss all 3 to an aux and put an eq and comp on there.
    We'll combine the 3 bass tracks in a way that's effectively eq
    anyhow.

    For each instrument, i want you to pick one 'point of power' that
    you feel emphasizes the 'weight' and thickness of the instrument.
    Also, pick one point for 'clarity', whether it's punch, presence
    or whatever you want it to have.

    Balance the point of power with the point of clarity so each
    thing is still powerful but clear. Am i repeating myself too much?
    Ha. Try use broad strokes for now. Wide Q.

    IF there's something offensive in each instrument, then by all means
    notch it out, but at this stage, keep it subtle. We'll go for the bad
    guys later IF (i keep making that a big if) they ruin the party at
    the end of it.

    The exception here is prob the bass. I usually find something between
    100-200hz that resonates much louder than other bass notes.
    Some basses are good with this, most aren't. Pulling this down a bit
    will make the bass seem to extend 'lower'

    For the compression, what i said earlier. SHAPE the sound.
    Most of the stuff here sounds like the transients could be
    exaggerated.

    Do all these moves in solo AND with drums and bass playing together.

    Lets hear where that gets you. Lots to come.
    If Chris or Charles feels like this is stripping back too far and
    starting again, that's fine. We can work on the settings and plugs
    you have.
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

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  18. #38
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    If Chris or Charles feels like this is stripping back too far and starting again, that's fine.
    With mixing I don't feel you can ever strip it back too far.

    I've done it multiple times. Challenging myself by moving out of my comfort techniques + towards something I've never tried before. I always learn something (even when I'm unsuccessful with the experiment) that I can use to broaden my mixing chops.

    So, my answer is... strip away.








    BTW... thanks to CH for diving in + rolling your sleeves up here.

    I meant to say this in the initial post in this thread, but it's just as relevant here...

    There are three phases of learning:

    1. Seeing
    2. Doing
    3. Teaching

    Each builds exponentially on the previous.

    And the last phase, teaching, is where you really gain a deep understanding of the subject beyond what you imagined possible.

    If you've never taught before... try it. You'll know way more when you finish than when you started.

    And of course it will also be very rewarding.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    If you've never taught before... try it. You'll know way more when you finish than when you started.

    And of course it will also be very rewarding.
    So true.
    I love teaching. Strangely.
    Makes me re-evaluate everything i do and think i may know.
    Especially when those that know more are watching on!

    I also enjoy trying to 'simplify' concepts so that they're quicker
    and easier to grasp.

    Thanks again.
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

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  20. #40
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    CaptainHook .......... You're doing a fantastic job here.


    Awesome !!!!!!!!!!!



    Chris

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