Thread: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

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  1. #41
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Thanks Chris!
    Appreciate it.
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

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  2. #42
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Hey guys...back in town and I have carved out some time on Sunday to work on the mix. I am going to strip it down to the essentials with the philosophy CH posted. I will post the progress and let CH (and anyone else) make suggestions. I should be able to do this each day through Wed of this week and am looking forward to some decent progress.

    So far being the student is not too bad. These are the things that you just cannot pick up by reading about settings on plugs or what something is supposed to do to the sound. I really appreciate the fact that it is not "set the compressor to x ratio, y threshold, and z attack..." as that would test my ability to follow directions, but not my own ability to recognize what may need to be done to shape the sound. The concepts mentioned are beyond how I have thought specifically about approaching each instrument. Most the time I thought of 'good' or 'right', but my thought now is 'purposeful' and 'interesting'. Though my point of 'clarity' or 'power' may be different than someone else's, the methods of enhancing them should be very similar. Just a bit what I have learned so far.
    We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. --Decca Recording Company, on rejecting the Beatles in 1962


  3. #43
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Just a bit what I have learned so far.



    Chris
  4. #44
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Okay!!...Progress! I went back yesterday and reworked the drums and bass...still with no spatial processing. Drums basically got some revised EQ and compression settings to shape the sound. I deleted a bunch of the other plugs other than the EQ and compressors. Bass tracks were sent to a common buss with EQ and Compression.

    Today I added the guitars and tweaked the drums just a little more. I should post just the drum and bass stem from today....ran out of time. The guitars each have a compressor, EQ, and tape. They were sent to a common buss and then to the master. There is no processing on the buss, but there is still some slight compression on the master.

    I feel better about where this mix is now and think it is a lot tighter than it has been up to this point. While adding the guitars back, I actually noticed some elements of the interplay between them after I stripped them down some. There are some subtleties that I did not pick up on before that I now rather enjoy listening to.

    That is it for now....
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Dino; February 12th, 2008 at 07:45 AM.
    We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. --Decca Recording Company, on rejecting the Beatles in 1962


  5. #45
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    For each instrument, i want you to pick one 'point of power' that
    you feel emphasizes the 'weight' and thickness of the instrument.
    Also, pick one point for 'clarity', whether it's punch, presence
    or whatever you want it to have.

    Balance the point of power with the point of clarity so each
    thing is still powerful but clear. Am i repeating myself too much?
    Ha. Try use broad strokes for now. Wide Q.
    I love the idea of this power/clarity balance, I'll have to experiment.
  6. #46
    once played a seventh chord in a folk song Can't believe it's not butter
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Great stuff so far. Listening to the stems is quite informative.
  7. #47
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    I love the idea of this power/clarity balance, I'll have to experiment.
    The downside to this concept is if it is done for everything,
    it will all be in your face. Not much depth.
    Something i'm trying get better with myself right now.
    Hopefully we can address that too.

    I'll listen to your stems today Dino!
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

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  8. #48
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    I wanted to get this up....I am not sure what to name these things any more... it is actually the Drum and Bass stem from the previous one with the guitars. As I mentioned, I tweaked the drums a bit more after adding the guitars. After some A / B to me they sound more "crisp" and defined....but let me know what you think.

    I do think there is some evolution of the sound happening here. When I go back and listen to some of the previous stems, it is almost painful at times!...which I guess is a good thing.
    Attached Files
    We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. --Decca Recording Company, on rejecting the Beatles in 1962


  9. #49
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Sorry Dino, real life got away with me again!
    I just had a listened to your last 3 files.
    Nice work!!

    I think we've made some distance. It was really good
    to hear it with the guitars actually. What did you do to them?

    If it's okay, i'd like to keep moving with the guitars in mix for
    the most part. Can you also post screenshots of your
    current settings for everything as they are?

    Here's my thoughts so far:

    Kick could be bigger; it's also a little undefined.
    Once you post your settings i'll have a better idea but
    it could maybe be sculpted more? I hear little attack OR punch.
    I think you could boost lower on it. Extend it down.
    It's possibly a bit quiet but that may be solved with eq/comp changes.

    Snare seems thick enough for me, could maybe have more bite/crack?
    Try adding some ambience now too. Either by verb, or 'mangling'
    the OH's similar to what i did. I think i did both. :P
    Try copying/duplicating the oh tracks, and compressing them to
    Tom Lord-Alge and back. Then look for the midrange of the snare
    with eq. We're gonna try add 'length' and 'depth' to the snare with
    them. If you add verb, post the settings. I recommend keeping
    it fairly short for now. 1-1.6 secs but everyone has their preference
    on reverb.

    OHs - Are they in mono right now? Or not panned out very far?
    Spread em baby. 100% L/R.
    And if you know what's good for you, you'll pan drummers
    perspective. HAHA.

    I'm not sure if it's the OHs, but something's sounding 'phasey' to me
    especially in the intro snare fill. Does your DAW do delay comp?
    Can't remember if we've covered this or not. If not, we're gonna
    have to make some changes (i'll check screenshots first).
    If it does, do you trust it? :P
    Not sure what's causing me to hear it that way, but if it's just
    me don't stress too much on this. It's just really the intro
    that strikes me as 'odd' somehow.

    Bass ~ similar to kick, go deeper. What's your balance of
    the 3 tracks? Still seems to be a bit of mid making it a
    tad 'woody' to me but this is all just preference.

    Next mix you post, do with everything except vox.
    Do as you please to the gats and synth and we'll see where
    we are at.

    Also, can you give me an idea on average how much
    compression is happening on the kick/snare/bass?

    Again, nice work!
    Very happy with the progress.
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

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  10. #50
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    So, CaptainHook, I was checking the original notes I made as I listened to everybody's mixes the first time around, and for yours I wrote "warm low end, best bass?" So how did you do it ? What EQ and comp did you use?
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Anduin ~ Thanks, read my post here, i mention the bass stuff at the
    end but it's prob worth reading the whole post so you know
    what i'm talking about. :P

    http://womb.mixerman.net/showpost.ph...&postcount=254
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

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  12. #52
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    I think we're getting somewhere here. Great job Dino and CH.


    Next mix you post Dino, post a full one as well where we can hear the improvements come together.


    Focussing on stems is good of course but in the end it also has to come together. This is where possibly you'll have to tweak things a bit more.


    So ... Captain Hook ... out of curiosity : Have you learned something from looking at your own mix like this ?

    Chris
  13. #53
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    So ... Captain Hook ... out of curiosity : Have you learned something from looking at your own mix like this ?
    So far i've learnt that i definitely have methods to how i
    approach things. More so than i realized or thought.
    Dunno if that's a good thing. I would like
    to do some mixes in a way i never do. Get out of my
    'comfort' zone. Maybe next MiXiT actually.
    Where it won't 'matter' if i fail miserably.

    I guess it's a double-edged sword. It helps me achieve
    'my sound' but if i'm not feeling inspired or energetic
    i will do things in an 'academic' way when it's prob in
    those situations i should be my most creative.

    On the other hand, i've also realized that maybe i
    know a bit more than i give myself credit for.
    Which is nice.

    I'm sure i will learn more when i have a chance to reflect
    back on this process, as there's prob something
    major i missing right now.

    Anything you or Charles think i should have learned?
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

    >> York St Recording Studios <<
  14. #54
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    With this take all settings on Drums, Bass and Guitars have screen shots of the plugs. I tried to get them while the tracks were playing so you can see the levels.

    Kick: I re-EQed the Kick and tweaked the compression some...I am still having a hard time getting it to be louder without clipping...or sounding really crappy. Check the EQ and Comp settings. This is sent to the Drums buss and the Drums Squish buss.

    Snare: Track was doubled. This was done in my original mix, but I had it muted in the previous stems. I re-enabled it and mixed it back in at a lower level to try to get some of the crack back. I tweaked some of the EQ a little more and enabled the Short Plate send on the main track. Both snare tracks are sent to the Drums buss and the Drums Squish buss.

    OH: Individual tracks were panned hard L / R and sent to a buss. Processing there is posted in the screen shots and I enabled the send to the hall reverb which is also posted. This is sent to the Drums buss only.

    Toms: No real changes here except the short plate send was enabled. This is sent to the Drums buss and the Drums Squish buss.

    Bass: All three tracks are sent to the Bass buss. Settings are posted. You should be able to see the levels on the console in the screen shot.

    Drums Buss: compression: attack 112, release 48.5, Ratio 3.01 : 1, Gain 3.5; Room Reverb See the FX screen shot.

    Guitars: All tracks have the same plugs: EQ, Comp, Tape. Settings are in the screen shots. These are all sent to the Guitars buss, where there is just some light compression.

    Synth, Keys, Violin: Take a listen and I will post the settings if need be.

    Sonar does have delay compensation and I believe, from what I have read, that it should be adequate. I noticed something as well and went back and changed the way I had the sends setup to the Drums Squish track. I think it is gone now, but take a listen.
    Attached Files
    We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. --Decca Recording Company, on rejecting the Beatles in 1962


  15. #55
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    So far i've learnt that i definitely have methods to how i
    approach things. More so than i realized or thought.
    Dunno if that's a good thing. I would like
    to do some mixes in a way i never do. Get out of my
    'comfort' zone. Maybe next MiXiT actually.
    Where it won't 'matter' if i fail miserably.

    I guess it's a double-edged sword. It helps me achieve
    'my sound' but if i'm not feeling inspired or energetic
    i will do things in an 'academic' way when it's prob in
    those situations i should be my most creative.

    On the other hand, i've also realized that maybe i
    know a bit more than i give myself credit for.
    Which is nice.

    I'm sure i will learn more when i have a chance to reflect
    back on this process, as there's prob something
    major i missing right now.

    Anything you or Charles think i should have learned?


    Great post. One of the things about these kinda cycles and in fact discussion forums like these is in fact exactly that :

    The fact that while typing up a post to discuss or explain something to somebody else, you actually HAVE to look at exactly how you yourself approach things. And doing that often teaches you more then reading other peoples posts.

    In flemish we have a saying that I'm sure translates into a similar saying in english or any other language : 'zelfkennis is het begin van wijsheid' which basically means something like 'knowing yourself is a starting point towards wisdom'


    Chris
  16. #56
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    With this take all settings on Drums, Bass and Guitars have screen shots of the plugs. I tried to get them while the tracks were playing so you can see the levels.

    Kick: I re-EQed the Kick and tweaked the compression some...I am still having a hard time getting it to be louder without clipping...or sounding really crappy. Check the EQ and Comp settings. This is sent to the Drums buss and the Drums Squish buss.

    Snare: Track was doubled. This was done in my original mix, but I had it muted in the previous stems. I re-enabled it and mixed it back in at a lower level to try to get some of the crack back. I tweaked some of the EQ a little more and enabled the Short Plate send on the main track. Both snare tracks are sent to the Drums buss and the Drums Squish buss.

    OH: Individual tracks were panned hard L / R and sent to a buss. Processing there is posted in the screen shots and I enabled the send to the hall reverb which is also posted. This is sent to the Drums buss only.

    Toms: No real changes here except the short plate send was enabled. This is sent to the Drums buss and the Drums Squish buss.

    Bass: All three tracks are sent to the Bass buss. Settings are posted. You should be able to see the levels on the console in the screen shot.

    Drums Buss: compression: attack 112, release 48.5, Ratio 3.01 : 1, Gain 3.5; Room Reverb See the FX screen shot.

    Guitars: All tracks have the same plugs: EQ, Comp, Tape. Settings are in the screen shots. These are all sent to the Guitars buss, where there is just some light compression.

    Synth, Keys, Violin: Take a listen and I will post the settings if need be.

    Sonar does have delay compensation and I believe, from what I have read, that it should be adequate. I noticed something as well and went back and changed the way I had the sends setup to the Drums Squish track. I think it is gone now, but take a listen.

    Hey Dino,


    First off ... Awesome job on the new posted mix. I think you made an enormous improvement. I just compared it to your original mix and in all honesty, I checked the filenames 3 times to make sure I was listening to the same mixer. Unbelievable .... Really.

    Now, a few remarks concerning your post.


    I can hear your 'kick' problems. It just sinks away too much in the full mix, meaning one of the first things to look at IS probably its level.

    Now, you say you have a hard time getting it louder without clipping. Well since you are obviously out of headroom on the kick, the only thing you can really do to make it louder is make the rest softer. One thing to get over is the misconception that one has to mix this close to the clipping point. On the contrary ... giving your levels enough headroom is and should be a priority.

    So lower EVERYTHING by at least 6 db or so would be my first / next step.

    The snare btw imvho in this mix is too loud. It is almost as if it isn't part of the drums anymore.


    Overall compared to your first mix it is amazing though how things are clearly starting to fall in place. Again, great job man ... great job. Congrats !!!!



    Chris
  17. #57
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Hey Dino,


    First off ... Awesome job on the new posted mix. I think you made an enormous improvement. I just compared it to your original mix and in all honesty, I checked the filenames 3 times to make sure I was listening to the same mixer. Unbelievable .... Really.

    Now, a few remarks concerning your post.


    I can hear your 'kick' problems. It just sinks away too much in the full mix, meaning one of the first things to look at IS probably its level.

    Now, you say you have a hard time getting it louder without clipping. Well since you are obviously out of headroom on the kick, the only thing you can really do to make it louder is make the rest softer. One thing to get over is the misconception that one has to mix this close to the clipping point. On the contrary ... giving your levels enough headroom is and should be a priority.

    So lower EVERYTHING by at least 6 db or so would be my first / next step.

    The snare btw imvho in this mix is too loud. It is almost as if it isn't part of the drums anymore.


    Overall compared to your first mix it is amazing though how things are clearly starting to fall in place. Again, great job man ... great job. Congrats !!!!



    Chris
    So here is the good part....these both are things that I thought after I posted the last mix. It did occur to me to bring everything down to be able to get the level of the Kick up. However, in looking at the relative levels of some of the other tracks I hesitated because they were already at about -3db peak and bringing them down I 'thought' may not be good. Again, I have learned something...trust instinct a little. Same with the snare...I actually brought it back down a bit after I tweaked the sound (which ended up boosting the level some) but I didn't bring it down enough. After I bounced it I thought it was still a little loud, but let it go because I was out of time and wanted to see what the result would be.

    Thanks for the comments. My greatest fear in taking this on was that I would not be able to achieve the sound we were looking for....nice to know I am on the right track.
    We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. --Decca Recording Company, on rejecting the Beatles in 1962


  18. #58
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Dino ~ i second everything chris said.

    Pull everything down. I know for PT, things sound better
    to me being quite conservative on level. This is argued
    everywhere, and i can't speak for other platforms but if
    the kick is clipping if you try turn it up...

    Your screenshots also show a lot of the plugs clipping.
    Pull down the input more. I used to have a problem doing
    that for some reason. But i got over it and things sound
    better for it. (to me)

    With the kick, listening to it and then looking at your settings,
    some things jump out as possibly part of the problem.
    I'm gonna play devils advocate and question every decision
    so bare with me. :P

    -A shelf at 32hz.... A can't see what benefit this is doing
    except possibly eating up headroom? Unless it's doing something
    you REALLY like, i would turn that boost off.

    - Bell at 85hz - Seems reasonable. Although from your move boosting down at
    32hz, i'm guessing you felt the kick wasn't 'deep' enough. Try pushing this boost
    down to 60-75 and see if that feels bigger but still punches enough...?
    Might need a tighter Q though. (P.s i don't like boosting low end shelves.
    I always do bell. I'll prob go to AE hell for it but whatever..)

    - Boost at 1.7k by 7.7db - I would prob boost higher than this myself. I've
    been conditioned to not like a lot of midrange in kicks unless the song
    really calls for it. Try going higher and less of a boost. This much midrange
    is killing some of the body and weight for me.

    - Low pass at 5k - Probably the most interesting decision of all. Is there something
    about the highend of the Kick you really don't like? I would think this move
    alone would stop the kick being defined and punchy. Try losing the high
    pass and see how you feel about it in the mix.

    I would also look at slowing down the release quite a bit,
    and speeding up the attack. Increase the attack just until
    it starts to take away the punch, then slow it down a bit.
    Maybe aim for 3db of comp too, rather than getting
    up to 6 as it looks. You can always use your 'squish' buss
    etc if you want that later.

    Seeing as you have the waves SSL stuff, i would have
    chosen an SSL eq for the kick over the wavesQ4 but
    that's not as important at this stage. The output
    of the eq is clipping so pull down the input.

    Snare - A bit too loud. It's also a bit 'boxy'. I think
    because of the 386hz@9.6db. Try go for a lower, thicker
    frequency, and don't boost as much. You're also pulling
    out 1.7k@-5.7. What's happening there you don't like?
    Try let some back in, if not all of it. If it bugs you, it's
    your mix in the end. Also, pulling down 14k@-8.6db.
    Are you trying to get rid of HH bleed or something?
    I would let this back as it's 'dulled' the snare a bit.
    We can look at gating or something if some bleed is
    bothering you.

    Also, try copying the snare track, and putting some
    kind of distortion on it. Play around with it with at least
    the whole kit playing back. Trying making it quite
    bright, or midrangy, whatever. Try a LOT of dist, then
    just a small amount. It MAY add something
    to the snare. It may be a waste of time. See what
    happens.

    Less compression. You have a drum buss and squish buss
    you can do those tricks with if that's your thing.

    What is that PSP doing? Are those needles showing
    input or how much gain reduction is happening?

    Toms ~ you're pulling out top end again? Maybe this is
    a good choice here, i really can't remember. I would
    think taking out that much is a bit overkill though.
    Again i'd try leaving that at 0db. Some would even
    boost a lot of the tops you've been cutting.

    OHs ~ still sound mono?
    I see you've panned them hard left and right, but is your
    drum buss in stereo? This may be a case of what you see
    making you think something is how it should be, when if
    you listen it tells another story.

    Do your drums go to the master
    buss as well as this drum buss? (parallel)
    Or only to then drum buss, then master?
    The channel says it's panned center, but i started to bleed
    out of my ear when trying to understand what i was looking
    at in sonar.
    Too much compression. Let the squish do it.

    Drums and Squish Buss - pull the gains down. They're both
    clipping.

    Bass ~ like i said before, i don't like boosting low shelves.
    Try changing it to a bell instead. Remember this is just
    my preference though, if it doesn't work for you, do
    what sounds right. Don't have the bell too wide and go
    lower than 90 like you have. Look around the same range
    i said for kick, but don't let them live in the same house
    as there won't be room. They work as neighbors fine tho.

    The eq is clipping. Pull it down.

    452@8.6db - this is the cause of the mid i said before making
    the bass 'woody' to me. (What a terrible description).
    I recommend loosing that boost. Try instead cutting
    between 100-200 somewhere like i first said.
    That RBass plug scares me also. I would lose it.
    Also, i like using the 'Rvox' plug on bass for compression.
    I'm pretty sure it's just some kind of limiter, dunno what
    or how it does what it does, but i like it. Try it and see
    what you think. Pull down the output gain, and then pull
    down the comp amount until you're compressing how
    much you want.

    Gats ~ kinda hard to comment on these choices as i
    really can't remember what guitar did what part.
    I don't usually high pass the 'main' guitars though. Unless
    you know, they REALLY need to be. You've pulled quite
    a bit of top end out again. I think we need to meet at
    some kind of middle ground in terms of how bright
    your original mix was, versus how much top end you've
    pulled out on this one.

    The guitars sound too mono also. I know it's hard to
    pan wide when there's just one guitar doing each part,
    but push them out. Balance them with the synths wide,
    send them to delays on the other side, whatever you have
    to do to get the synths and gats WIDE. The mix at the moment
    is still very mono. Push some stuff 100% left, and other
    stuff 100% right.


    I know this post has been a bit more specific about settings
    etc, and by all means only do what sounds right to you
    and don't worry if that's the opposite of my suggestions.
    But at least give them all a try, do it with the whole mix
    playing back, check it in solo, live with it for a bit then
    decide if you're happy or not. We're starting to refine
    everything a bit more, so i guess that will mean some of
    the details will be looked at to see how they affect the
    big picture.

    I think next we'll look at the vocals/fx and automation.
    Again, awesome work Dino!
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

    >> York St Recording Studios <<
  19. #59
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Latest mix....I took the suggestions and this is what came out.
    Attached Files
    We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out. --Decca Recording Company, on rejecting the Beatles in 1962


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    Default Re: MiX iT! 2h - XvsY: CaptainHook + Dino

    Dino, CaptainHook,

    Everyone,


    We're about to wrap this round up.

    The main reason for this is that we have MiX iT#3 coming up.


    Dino and CH ... thank you very much for taking such an active part in the last round of MiX iT#2. This would not have been possible if it wasn't for the tremendous effort and time that both of you put so willingly into this.

    You guys ROCK!!!!!!!!!


    See you in #3.






    Chris

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