Thread: Suggested Avg RMS Level of Mixes

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  1. #21
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A


    The -13 RMS mix actually has dynamics to boot too...

    What to do, what to do.

    Doc
    ummmm, leave it at -13 RMS?
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    Well, part of the problem is that many programs actually measure avg rms incorrectly with a -3 dB offset.

    So, an avg rms or -11 will actually look like -14 dB, for example.

    A simple way to confirm this is to take a modern pop or rock record + measure it. If the software says, it's avg rms is -8 or -9 dB, then you have the -3 dB offset.

    If it says, -5 or -6 dB, then your software is measuring it the correct way.

    Hope this helps.

    btw IntelDoc... it looks like your software may have the -3 dB offset.
    Interesting. Guess I'll be checking the calibration tonight....

    Hey Charles, so is PAZ RMS correct or off in PT?
    Last edited by Charles Dye; April 30th, 2008 at 09:22 AM. Reason: (fixing offset -cdye)
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    ummmm, leave it at -13 RMS?
    -13 is Low considering todays standards

    Thanks though... noted...

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  4. #24
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    This may be a beginner question but I was wondering what you guys are using to measure RMS?

    When I mix I do what I think sounds good as long as nothing is clipping. I usually put the Waves PAZ analyzer on my master just to make sure stuff isn't clipping. Can I use that?

    I use DP but I also have Logic and PT.

    thanks jay
    I'm using Wavelab for that. But as figured out earlier, it has the 3 dB offset bug. I don't know exactly if Waves PAZ analyzer is able to do it. The thing is that it has to do a global analysis over the whole tune to analyze for the average rms level. If it's a realtime plugin it will probably be able to display the current peak or rms but I'm not sure if it has the ability to do it global.
    May some of the other guys could recommend an application which calculates the avg rms accurately.


    Well, part of the problem is that many programs actually measure avg rms incorrectly with a -3 dB offset.
    I was just thinking about this...why does that offset occur ? Could you explain, please ?

    Best,

    Marco.
    Last edited by tannoy; April 30th, 2008 at 06:53 PM. Reason: (offset correction -cdye) / me too, wl offset bug -marco
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    I think I may have answered my own question. This is from the PAZ manual. Seems to suggest what Charles is saying.

    "Peak and Loudness meters are shown beside each other; when in stereo, the L and R channels have separate Peak meters, with a summed Loudness meter which has 6dB subtracted from it (L+R-6dB). Although the true energy the ears are exposed to by stereo signals is indeed the sum of L and R energies, by subtracting 6dB from the loudness meter, it’s easier to evaluate the Peak/RMS relations of the signal. This is because summed left/right signlas can have peaks as much as 6dB higher than either channel separately."
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    Makes sense...
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    I was just going to the PAZ manual. That makes sense but it also means we have to add 6db... but it's not doing it for the whole song just that split instance that is playing.

    jay
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    If you mean "Pro Tools" then maybe, but I meter with my Benchmark ADC-1 as well as the PAZ meter and the peak levels all seem to be the same throughout. When I send off to master I set it usually for a -7 peak and 021 RMS to allow for some levels to be played with during mastering.

    I am curious to see though. Levels seem to match up too when I bring into Wavelab from time to time to re-analyze final levels.

    Doc
    Are you measuring the avg rms in realtime, or measuring the avg rms of an entire file with some kind of non-realtime measurement software?

    The latter is the kind I'm referring to + what I used to measure the avg rms of MM's ruf mix.
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    but it's not doing it for the whole song just that split instance that is playing.

    jay
    Not sure what you mean by that.

    I guess I'm assuming that if you pull up the PAZ and play the tune through, you';d take the final RMS and add 6db to it to get the RMS of the tune, right?
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    Charles,
    Thanks for the reply. What I usually do is take my mix when I write (sum) it back into Pro Tools and get the levels where I want. My Master fader on my API 7800 sits at -7db and does not move. My Benchmark ADC-1 is also calibrated to reach the same levels that I see in Pro Tools on the Master Fader as well. All the faders for summing back into Pro Tools are set to 0db and then I write the track in. I will put a PAZ meter on the Bus that I have that then writes to the AUDIO track. That PAZ meter I then set to RMS and watch it as the song writes. After it is written I usually go by what I see peaking on that meter
    (-7 peaks with a -20 to -21 RMS peak is what I shoot for with a UNMASTERED mix) This was what a reputible ME and I talked about on the phone one day as what he likes to see when sent to him. THis way it gave him a 14 or so db ability to play with when he does his work.

    If I had doubts on the Average levels I then go into Wavelab and analyze it in there with the AVERAGE analyzer feature at 300ms rate. Now that I read here it seems that it too has a -6db bug as well?

    All and all I guess it boils down to "how loud you really want it" but for the majority of my stuff I send out what sounds good, hits what I feel is a proper level and not too hot. If it is too low, a good ME house "should" be able to get it up to standards, if there is such a thing.

    FWIW: Everytime I send out material to Sterling, Bob, or Nathan James it always seems to come back sounding like a record so I am happy.

    Best,

    Doc
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    I guess PAZ is giving me a Peak RMS level when it runs through the whole song... or is it an average RMS Level. That's what I'm trying to ask. It looks like the number below the meter is a peak. Long day... am I making more sense? If i'm having a brain fart and totally overlooking the obvious I'm sorry.

    jay
  12. #32
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    The RMS on the PAZ is a PEAK for real-time. What they are saying is after the song is done you can use other applications to show AVERAGE RMS. I do not know of a plugin in PT that will look at that?

    Doc
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    Doyle,

    "Peak and Loudness meters are shown beside each other; when in stereo, the L and R channels have separate Peak meters, with a summed Loudness meter which has 6dB subtracted from it (L+R-6dB). Although the true energy the ears are exposed to by stereo signals is indeed the sum of L and R energies, by subtracting 6dB from the loudness meter, it’s easier to evaluate the Peak/RMS relations of the signal. This is because summed left/right signlas can have peaks as much as 6dB higher than either channel separately."
    ...yes, that makes sense indeed. Thanks for posting.

    Later,

    Marco.
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  14. #34
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    when in stereo, the L and R channels have separate Peak meters, with a summed Loudness meter which has 6dB subtracted from it (L+R-6dB).
    Hmh...
    I use Sony Soundforge which calculates and shows peak and average RMS for both channels of the complete file individually.
    And to me -11 db measured in Soundforge sounds more on the hot side.

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  15. #35
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    Ya, but in the big scheme of things, -12 to -10 RMS seems to be the going level for most records these days.

    The 2nd Aviril CD was -4
    Staind CD was -6

    Those are LOUD!!!!!!

    Doc
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    The RMS on the PAZ is a PEAK for real-time.
    Haven't used it in a long time, but can't you change it from
    peak to average? And choose the time in ms?
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    Ya, but in the big scheme of things, -12 to -10 RMS seems to be the going level for most records these days.
    Nope. I'd be shocked if you could find 1. I can't name any.

    None of the commercial records from the major labels that I've measured are @ an avg rms of -10 to -12 dB today.

    Nearly all of them are @ an avg rms of -5 to -6 dB.
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    If you mean "Pro Tools" then maybe, but I meter with my Benchmark ADC-1 as well as the PAZ meter and the peak levels all seem to be the same throughout. When I send off to master I set it usually for a -7 peak and 021 RMS to allow for some levels to be played with during mastering.

    I am curious to see though. Levels seem to match up too when I bring into Wavelab from time to time to re-analyze final levels.

    Doc
    By "software" I'm not talking about PT. I'm talking about whatever software you are using to measure the avg rms.

    If you have doubts whether your measurement software is measuring avg rms correctly, please use the calibration method I mentioned above.

    btw... "avearge rms" + "peak rms" are not the same thing.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A

    By "software" I'm not talking about PT. I'm talking about whatever software you are using to measure the avg rms.

    If you have doubts whether your measurement software is measuring avg rms correctly, please use the calibration method I mentioned above.

    btw... "avearge rms" + "peak rms" are not the same thing.
    Understand... Going to stick to my way now. Pretty comfortable with the results I get and seem to think that they are fairly accurate with what I am monitoring at. Thanks though for all the replies, etc. as it is always appreciated....

    And yes I know that PEAK and AVERAGE are two diff things.

    Doc
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3a - Mix for Mixerman Q&A


    Nearly all of them are @ an avg rms of -5 to -6 dB.
    Does that mean we are all slowly going DEAF?
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