Thread: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

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    Default MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Hey All,

    Okay. Here is my mix, as God, I, and Strange Faces intended it.

    First, some information on how it was recorded.

    Drums

    The drums are recorded from the top down. In other words, if you start with the stereo Room channels, and then start adding the other mics to boost the Rooms, you will have achieved the basic balance of the drums. First, I'll give you the recording information as I can remember it.

    The Rooms were recorded with two M249s. They were about 6-8 feet off the drums. About 6 feet off the ground. And about 10 feet apart. I compressed the Rooms to tape, using a Fatso Jr. I also printed the Rooms hard to tape. I tried several different pairs of mics for the Rooms, and moved them around judiciously until I found what I was looking for out of them, which was a well balanced aggregate of the entire kit.

    If you listen to the Overheads, they carry the attack of the toms, the kik and the snare. Oftentimes in my drum recordings, the overheads carry an aggregate of the kit. Because of the Rooms, I didn't record the overheads this way. In fact, they're odd Overheads for me, but they worked so I don't question it. I can't honestly remember what I ended up using for mics on the overheads. It could have been 451s. All I can tell you is they're heavily compressed, and they are meant to be used for the punch of the drums. They were compressed to tape with an 1178. I found the Overheads worked best even in level with the Rooms, and no more.

    I used 421s on the toms, and when I use that particular mic, it's because I want to boost the low end from the toms. If you listened to the kik or the toms and you didn't like the tones, that's because they aren't meant to stand on their own. Normally, I would blend the toms in with the overheads, and make a stereo pair of tracks called "Drums." I couldn't do that on this project, because Ryan was both the Bass player and the Guitar player for the album. Given this, I was lacking too much information during the tracking process to be able to make that kind of blend decision. So, I printed the Tom mics separately.

    The snare was recorded with a 57 on the top and a 421 on the bottom. The bottom mic is reverse polarity from the top mic, so as not to diminish the bottom end on the snare. They are combined to tape on one channel through a dbx 160 compressor. I don't like recording separate snare mics, even when recording to a DAW, but especially when recording to tape. If I can keep my drum track counts down, that saves me real estate for later, and saves me from possibly having to use a slave machine.

    The kik is a double headed kik drum. This particular kik on this song has the most attack of any of the other songs. If we had wanted a full attack on the kik drum, we would have used a front head with a hole in it. If you listen to the Room mics, there is LOADS of kik in them. The kik mic is used to boost the rooms.

    To record the kik, I used a 47 Fet combined with an NS10 woofer (used as a microphone). Because the mics are outside the drum, there is cymbal and snare information on that channel. Therefore, you cannot brighten the kik drum without risking ruining the snare (or by using a gate, which would be most disappointing). But you shouldn't need to do either of those treatments. For me, the only EQ that I added to that kik drum is low-end EQ. It has been compressed using a Distressor, to tape. I also hit tape hard with the signal, which further lops off top from the signal.

    Because I was so aggressive during the tracking process, I did minimal processing during the mixdown process. I did use some EQ on the drums. I did run the Rooms through a Fatso Jr. again during mixdown, and which I used for the "warmth" function in order to shave off the top end of the cymbals in the Room mics. I much prefer using the Fatso warmth, to removing high end than using EQ. The warmth function seems to lop off the high end, without making the original signal dark.

    Bass

    For the bass, I used both the di and the amp. It's actually somewhat rare for me to use the DI signal when mixing. But I decided early on in the recording process that I liked how the DI interacted with the amp signal, and how much low end came out of the two when I got the balances right between them (mostly amp). When I was tracking, I listened to the DI and the amp together. Therefore, when I mixed, I did the same.

    Guitars

    The main guitar, the big one that comes in about 2 minutes in, is designed to have a large reverb on it. I used a plate. An EMT 140, and I will post that file for everyone in this thread. You can put the plate into your file and see how it compares to any reverbs you might have tried. If you used a digital reverb, and struggled with the guitar, then you should definitely try the EMT140. I reserved this file, because I wanted mixers to struggle with what they had first, in order to demonstrate just how amazingly easy life can be with a plate. Of course, they take up an insane amount of room, and must be kept in a reasonably quiet space. But they cannot be replicated digitally. Not yet anyway. If you find the plate to be no better than your digital reverb, well, then you should be quite happy to know you can match a plate.

    Rhodes

    The Rhodes was recorded mono, with a mic on the suitcase speaker. There were some songs that we used the tremelo and recorded the Rhodes stereo, but since the B3 was stereo, we decided the Rhodes should be mono. I doubt there's any compression. I'm sure I cut some of the mud with EQ when mixing, just so it would cut a little more through the full band. I also had to ride it up considerably in the big sections.

    B3

    This was recorded with a stereo pair of 414s on a 147 Lesile. The B3 was Ryan's personal A100, which we brought with us to the session at Echo Mountain. The 414s are placed equidistant from the rotor. Because the top rotor is placed on the right side, the mics are not placed one on each side of the cab, but rather one in the back, and one on the side, facing each other, about a foot off the rotor. There is a bottom mic on the bottom rotor, but we didn't use it.

    As many have commented, the B3 is killer. Not only in tone, but in performance. Ryan is a talented B3 player. I didn't use, and almost never use compression on a B3. For starters, it does whacky things to the stereo rotor imaging. Secondly, the B3 is meant to be a dynamic instrument, so compressing it doesn't seem to make a whole hell of a lot of sense to me. In the case of this production, the B3 needs to be brought up and down throughout the song, using automation. I think of it as a second pass at the volume pedal, but with full context.

    Vocals

    I chose to affect the vocal differently in different sections of the song. The only place I used reverb was the Bridge, since that's the point that the Deer is saying goodbye to his family. In my estimation, that's an ethereal moment for the Deer. I used varying amounts of doubling length delay on the vocals throughout the song. The thinking behind constantly changing the amount of double effect, and the vocal effects in general, was this: I figure, if you're dying, you're going to have all sorts of whacky things going through your head. So, I wanted to give the vocal some motion where that was concerned. The goal being to put the listener into the deer's head.

    The biggest trick about the mix of this song, is to make the vocal loud enough to make out every word, but not too loud to weaken the track. Plus a vocal that's too loud on a song like this will sound cabaret to me. Too soft, and you're not getting across the lyric. If you listen to the mixes with a super-loud vocal, they lack a toughness. They don't sound like a band, but rather like a singer songwriter.

    Some people commented on the sound of the vocal. I even got a PM asking me why I compressed them so much. The short answer is, I liked it. And if I like something, and I know I like it, I'm not afraid to record it as I like it. I wanted the vocal in your face, I didn't care about the comp noises or the half breaths. To me, that worked to the advantage of the song. It's a dying deer. If I wanted a pristine vocal, it'd be a pristine vocal. It was the last vocal we recorded on the album. I had plenty of time to get it right. But in this case, I wanted a noisy, breathy, sloppy, lip smacking vocal. And that's what we got.

    Tambourine

    I ditched the tambourine in my mix. Ultimately, I didn't think it added to the track, and at times, I felt it detracted.

    The Mix

    As far as the mix goes, I had an SSL G384 strapped to the 2-buss. Like I said in one of the other threads, I monitor at all times with an SSL on the 2-buss, because I know that's what I'm going to use when I'm mixing. I've been using it for 15 years, and I have no intention of changing it any time soon. The way I use 2-buss compression, much of my drum compression comes from that, because I'm often using a fast attack and fast release, at a 4:1 ratio. I probably used limiting on the bass. Perhaps an La2a. I probably used an 1176 on the vocal during the mix. Perhaps an La2a. Hard to remember which. I probably didn't compress the guitars. I may have compressed the Rhodes.

    Other MiX iT! Mixes

    I've listened to a bunch of the mixes, and I'd like to give some of my overall thoughts. I'm going to use some generalizations, and I'm going to pen some particularly pointed criticisms regarding those generalizations. At the close of this section, I'll put that all into the proper perspective. So, if you're reading this, and getting annoyed with me, please give me the opportunity to wrap up my thoughts before you put up a hasty reply.

    Sample Replacement

    The one thing that stuck out at me, while listening to some mixes, and reading the words of some mixers, was this idea that the kik and the snare needed to be in your face. Frankly, any mixer who chose to add samples got me scratching my head a bit. These were big beautiful drums. I can't understand why it was important to some mixers that the snare and kik hits be perfectly identical or boosted in any way. This track wasn't about kik and snare. It's not a dance song. It's not dense, except in the Bridge. Every mix that had samples made me cringe.

    Kenny's use of the samples was probably the most tasteful and transparent (of the one's I've heard), but it still completely removed me from the song. Of course, Kenny purposely did an aggressive treatment (including breaking the rules) for demonstration purposes. It was a treatment that we talked about in advance of his doing the mix. In particular, I WANTED him to use samples, partly because I didn't expect anyone else would try to, and partly because I wanted to demonstrate what samples do to a song like this. Despite that, some of you really dug the addition of samples, which quite obviously underscores the remarkable subjectivity of judging mixes. Because to me, samples are a horrible intrusion, while to some, it was an improvement.

    Regardless, as a producer, if I were going to send this track to Kenny (or anyone else) to mix for me, I'd insist on no samples! But I will say this, if I wanted to add samples to a track, Kenny's the guy I'd call and ask to do it for me. He's great at it.

    "Radio" was one of the reasons listed by mixers, for adding samples or for using compression tricks to push the kik and snare up front. But this isn't a radio song. Not in it's form. Not in it's content. It wasn't designed as a radio song. It wasn't targeted as a radio song. And if it ever became a radio song, it would be because the band had several other radio hits before it, and not because it had all the markings of one beforehand. In my opinion, it's always a mistake to MAKE a song a radio song. Especially in the mixdown phase.

    Goal of Mixing

    As I see it, the default goal of a mixer, should NOT be to make songs "radio," particularly ones which otherwise are missing all the elements that would make it radio in the first place. That might be the goal for someone like Kenny, because he has positioned himself professionally in that place. But frankly, UNTIL you have a radio hit, you have no business positioning yourself in that manner. And besides, I think it's a dangerous game to be getting into, because "radio" doesn't necessarily take into account the MUSIC first and foremost.

    Mixing is about bringing a song and production to their fullest potential. In my opinion, the best mixers will pull out the best the song and production have to offer. It's the PRESENTATION that causes emotional impact from a song. That's what the mix is. The presentation of the song. How many of you who were making this song "radio" actually believed you were doing the right thing for the song. Never mind the label. Never mind the band. Was this the right treatment for the SONG? If the song doesn't really have radio potential, then by treating it ways that make the song more radio, you're bringing it somewhere it wasn't designed to go. You're no longer bringing the song to it's fullest potential, but rather, to the predetermined and fabricated potential of radio airplay.

    I can understand why on some productions mixers would want the kik and the snare up front and in your face. But it seems to me, some of you feel that should be the default modus operandi. I heard countless mixes with kiks and snares so inappropriately boosted and/or accentuated, that I couldn't barely listen to the song. Every song and production is different. Not all productions call for an in your face kik and snare. Sometimes, you need to find the pronounced rhythm of the song, from another place. Like the bass.

    In this song, I find THE BASS to be the most important rhythm instrument. The bass provides all the movement. The drums merely follow the bass. The bass provides the entire foundation for the mix. If you listen to my mix, the bass is the most forward rhythm instrument on the mix. There's a very good reason for that. You could easily mix this song without the drums. But the mix would fall apart without the bass. Therefore, it is the bass that should be used for the rhythm. Not the kik and the snare.

    Use of Stereo Field

    Some mixes barely used the stereo field. To me, mixes should maximize the stereo field whenever possible, unless there is a specific reason in a particular case for not maximizing it. So, I put the Rhodes hard right. The Guitars hard left. Panned the toms from hard left to hard right. Panned the overheads hard left and right. Panned the rooms hard left and right. Panned the B3 hard left and right. The only instruments in the center are the kik, snare, bass and the vocal. This allows me to pull that vocal into the track a bit more than I otherwise might be able to, and without losing a single word. If you find instruments that are hard panned to be distracting, then I have to wonder what you're listening to in reference. This is a very common treatment in rock music. All music post 1968 for that matter.

    Production!

    Some mixers decided to really trick this thing out. I decided against that treatment aside from the large reverb on the guitar, the big crack on the snare (to go with the lyric) and the delay treatments on the vocal. I've found, that aggressively tricking out a production doesn't always serve the production well. And I chose to allow it to stand as it is. To me the track sets precisely the right mood as it stands. But again, it's difficult for me to be objective. Frankly, many of the additions to the production weren't nearly as offensive to me as samples on the kik and snare. Some of them I actually liked, although I have no plans on recalling the song to change it in any way.

    My Disclaimer

    Now, I've expressed some strong opinions here, particularly regarding samples, and I'd like to take a moment to put them into perspective. You were asked to mix the song, and you each decided how to mix the song. If you wanted a boosted kik and snare, for whatever reason, fair enough. I'm not berating individuals for this choice. I'm not even berating you as a group. I'm sure, some of you boosted kik and snare because you LIKED it better. Plus you were all mixing this in a limited amount of time, with no incentive other than learning for some of you, and participating for others to learn for others of you. In my estimation, it's very difficult to mix a song in which there already exists a final mix. That removes an enormous amount of personal incentive from the latter group involved in the process.

    For those of you who were giving of your time, my words here are not meant to call you out for using samples, not using the entire stereo field, or for any other decisions you made that I might not agree with. Rather, I'm looking to offer how it affects me to hear it as the producer, for the benefit of us all, including myself. Really, the best thing that people can walk away from this, is considering their own mix, in comparison with some of the better independent mixes, and in comparison with how I presented the mix as the producer. Hopefully, my thought process, through my overall criticism, will help others to consider why they made certain decisions, and evaluate those decisions with some hindsight based on the thinking of the people who made the track to begin with. In reading this post, do you feel you made the right decisions with your mix? Or in listening to my mix, do you think that you've improved upon the original? Only you can answer that question for yourself. In the meantime, I'm just trying to give you plenty to think about.

    Do YOU Like it?

    On that point, so long as you THOUGHT about your decisions as they related to the production of the song, and so long as those decisions make sense to you musically, even after reading my comments here, then you did what you were supposed to do. Usually, you don't have to pit your mix against 100+ other mixers, let alone the producer's own mix.

    I guess the biggest and most important question is this: Did you deliver the most emotional impact you could have? If you think you did, then good on ya!

    Here are the files: I would highly recommend downloading them for listening, as opposed to streaming.


    I'd Like to Thank the Academy...


    My thanks to Charles and Chris for running this Shindig. Well done as always. My thanks to Strange Faces for allowing us to use their track. My thanks to all the pros that participated in this, giving their time for the betterment of others. And my congratulations to all of you with the enthusiasm and cojones to learn and practice in such a public manner as this. It's been a blast for me, because I've never taken the opportunity to have others mix one of my productions. It's been a learning process for me as well.

    Feel free to discuss. I'm looking forward to the comments, and I'll answer any and all questions that I can.

    Enjoy,

    Mixerman
    #Mixerman and the Billionheir Apparent - A satire of the modern day music business


  2. #2
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Great write-up. Very enjoyable to read. I personally liked your mix the best. I'm not a fanboy - I just think you mix had the best combination of organic tone and raw energy.

    Curious - what attack/release settings did you use on your SSL?

    - Damon

    P.S. EMT kills.. the UAD is nice, but really doesn't have the depth, vibe and balls of the real thing.
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Cool Mix MM. I like that you kept things simple. Comments are always nice too. I guess the "big" thing here is that it appears that everyone learned from this and different approaches were heard. That is what makes it all different. "Different Strokes for Different Folks" right. If a mix came to me and the producer said "No Samples" then by god, "No Samples" Simple enough.

    I do like your vocal treatment and thought that it was very smooth and fits the tune. I have to say as a guitar player, my ear pulls too much to the left with it, but it is a great tone.

    It was great to be able to play with this tune and I think that everyone will agree. I also forgot to mention that I like how you automated the FX on the vox at the very last "PROUD" to be completely dry. Nice touch.

    Best,

    Doc
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Awesome post.

    Thank you very much MM for doing this!!
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Wow - Mixerman speaks a kind word about Kenny! I'm impressed.
    You can hear some of my work at http://www.thedubnicks.com - feedback appreciated!

    "Think of a creative way around your problem and keep your money in your pocket." - Robert Rodriguez from his "10 Minute Film School" mini-doc on the making of his first, $7000 budget movie, El Mariachi.

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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    thank you for the write-up of what you did. This entire process has been very cool. Hearing the stories from you and Strange Faces about the writing of the song, to hearing the raw tracks and playing with them, and getting some insight into what was done both in getting the raw tracks and how they were mixed.

    As many have mentioned, a big lesson is that great tracks make the mixing job pretty easy over all. I know I spent a lot of time just listening to the room drums tracks, the balance you achieved there is great.

    I cant remember if it was mentioned in the other thread. Did you mix this in a studio from the tape, or with your IAB Logic/Dangerous box setup?

    Thanx again to you, Strange Faces, and all involved in making this event happen!
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Thank you for the kind words.

    Not kissing your butt but I do love your mix. And there's no question that your mix makes much more sense than mine for this song.

    No one would ever hire me to mix this song BTW.

    I'm impressed with the overall rawness and I love the fact that you utilized all the sonic space. You didn't carve everything out to make everything perfectly clear. Messy is good. Messy is emotional. Radio mixes are not emotional.

    I can't hear the SSL compressor at all. But that's a good thing in this case. I would never have used the SSL to make a mix like this. Neve 2254 all the way.

    I like the panning in the intro. Finally that guitar makes sense. It didn't to me. But I don't know Artsy. This mix is Artsy.

    Am I crazy or did you do the same edit at the end that I did?

    Thanks for doing this and I do miss those bells.
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Thank you for the kind words.

    Not kissing your butt but I do love your mix.
    A little lower...lower...right there! Ahhhhhhhh....

    I mean...er...thanks Kenny.

    And there's no question that your mix makes much more sense than mine for this song.

    No one would ever hire me to mix this song BTW.

    I'm impressed with the overall rawness and I love the fact that you utilized all the sonic space. You didn't carve everything out to make everything perfectly clear. Messy is good. Messy is emotional. Radio mixes are not emotional.

    I can't hear the SSL compressor at all. But that's a good thing in this case. I would never have used the SSL to make a mix like this. Neve 2254 all the way.

    I like the panning in the intro. Finally that guitar makes sense. It didn't to me. But I don't know Artsy. This mix is Artsy.

    Am I crazy or did you do the same edit at the end that I did?

    Thanks for doing this and I do miss those bells.
    The bells would be great for the James Bond - Aren't You Proud! (The Movie) mix.

    I shortened the end. I thought it was overkill going around that Rhodes part twice.

    I was hitting the SSL pretty hard, for me anyway. Between 3-4 db on a fast attack, auto release at 4:1. You probably use it at 10:1. Right? I try using it at 10:1 all the time, and then go back to 4:1. I've never actually managed to use it at 10:1.

    I've never liked 2254s for the stereo buss. Although I'm considering trying it for the Logic room.

    The plate makes a huge difference for the guitar. I tried doing a mix without the plate (long story), and I couldn't make the fucking thing work.

    Enjoy,

    Mixerman
    #Mixerman and the Billionheir Apparent - A satire of the modern day music business


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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    MM ~ I'm impressed with how you make your guitars "sound loud"
    without them taking up all the room.
    Your mix also gets much more intense and aggressive than what
    i was able to do.

    Being a freelance guy, how do you deal with going from room
    to room and getting the bottom end right when surely it's
    different everywhere you go?

    Developing an ear for this stuff is hard enough, i would think going
    from room to room would increase the 'learning curve' even more
    or maybe you feel that experience actually helped....?

    Wow - Mixerman speaks a kind word about Kenny! I'm impressed.
    For all their differences, i don't think Kenny would be a mod with
    his own forum here if MM didn't respect in him in some way.
    Some small, tiny, insignificant way.

    But seriously, who could deny Kenny is very good at what he does?
    Whether you agree with 'what he does' is preference.
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    MM ~ I'm impressed with how you make your guitars "sound loud"
    without them taking up all the room.
    Your mix also gets much more intense and aggressive than what
    i was able to do.

    Being a freelance guy, how do you deal with going from room
    to room and getting the bottom end right when surely it's
    different everywhere you go?

    Developing an ear for this stuff is hard enough, i would think going
    from room to room would increase the 'learning curve' even more
    or maybe you feel that experience actually helped....?
    Thanks for the kind words. Moving from room to room is difficult. I think in the long run, it's helped. I also think it keeps me on my toes, and prevents this from becoming a factory job. It's too easy to use the identical settings for each band. I don't want to end up doing that. Moving around forces the issue.

    In order to keep consistent, I just keep listening to mixes I'm familiar with, and comparing them with my mix at various stages, until I'm feeling comfortable with the room.

    For all their differences, i don't think Kenny would be a mod with
    his own forum here if MM didn't respect in him in some way.
    Some small, tiny, insignificant way.
    The way Kenny works drives me bonkers. But he's a great friend. And of course I respect him. And I'd recommend him in a heartbeat for any session I thought was up his alley.

    The ONLY reason we can give him the amount of shit we do on the Radio Show, is because we like him.

    But seriously, who could deny Kenny is very good at what he does?
    Whether you agree with 'what he does' is preference.
    Precisely.

    I cant remember if it was mentioned in the other thread. Did you mix this in a studio from the tape, or with your IAB Logic/Dangerous box setup?
    I mixed this one twice. The first time on an 8068. The second time on am Amek console (I'll post the model number tomorrow, because I forget). I didn't like my first mix, and rather than recall it, I just mixed it again.

    Enjoy,

    Mixerman
    #Mixerman and the Billionheir Apparent - A satire of the modern day music business


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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    I also think it keeps me on my toes, and prevents this from becoming a factory job. It's too easy to use the identical settings for each band. I don't want to end up doing that. Moving around forces the issue.
    Good point. Learning your gear/room can 'limit' you sometimes.
    It's nice to have time/budget/energy to try experiment when you
    can. Or even reevaluate working methods.

    I just keep listening to mixes I'm familiar with, and comparing them with my mix at various stages, until I'm feeling comfortable with the room.
    What are your references?
    Especially for bottom end/bass guitar.

    I didn't like my first mix
    Care to elaborate why?
    Do you find it hard to not over-compensate in that situation
    when remixing or doing revisions?

    I do. Even when consciously telling myself not to.
    "Art is the expression of imagination, not the reproduction of reality." - Henry Moore

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    Martini Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    I mixed this one twice. The first time on an 8068. The second time on am Amek console (I'll post the model number tomorrow, because I forget). I didn't like my first mix, and rather than recall it, I just mixed it again.
    Thanx for responding. No need to give a model number on the board, I was interested mostly in which approach you used in the end.
    I read about some of you big guys printing to tape, then getting it into the computer to work on from there, and a few that still use the tape all the way through.
    I actually rather like that you were a little vague about what gear you used exactly for this (intentional or not). Helps prevent the copy/paste "this is what so and so did" mentality.

    One of the strongest messages I see from you guys across this entire forum is-
    screw formulas, screw presets, use your ears and make it sound good.
    then you offer suggestions for tools that might help achieve that, without getting too specific.

    For someone like me, years out of practice, and just starting to dabble again (because I miss the insanity of recording sometimes), thats golden advice. Especially now since it seems like everything is ITB, and copy/paste seems easy.

    Cheers!
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    The second time on am Amek console (I'll post the model number tomorrow, because I forget).

    Mixerman
    If it's the Amek out at Total Access, it's a G2520. I have no personal history with this board, but that facility looks like a real fun place to work, so I've had my eye on it. Also, the Meyer HD-1 monitors were my first love in non-ns10 nearfields back in the day. Expensive, though, which I imagine was a large reason they never really seemed to get the play I thought they deserved. Anyway, back to the mix.

    I, like CaptainHook, would love to understand what you didn't like about your first mix. I personally am never satisfied with anything I do, but then again I'm not nearly as accomplished an artist, so that makes sense. I'm still tinkering with tunes I co-wrote 20 years ago. Knowing when you have it right must be a skill a busy working professional must develop, I imagine.

    The EMT140 does sound fantastic. No way software can approach that. I have a pretty good software plate, but it can't compete with the real thing. Hmmm, where to put the real thing here at the house...

    Thanks again for making this entire project possible. Very, very instructive. The drum tracks alone are proving to be very enlightening.

    Cal


    "My experience has been that people who perceive a conflict between science and spirituality generally know very little about one or the other. Often they know very little about both." - Bob Ohlsson

    "Real men do hard things." - Anonymous - Don't know who said it first, but I like it.
  14. #14
    wardrobe malfunction investigator 329 M/S Hen=Mock Chicken!
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Thanks for taking the time with this MM Loved the mix and you really nailed the emotional impact IMO.

    Questions questions - the vocals...

    1) Did you remove specific breath noises? I notice that they come and go (in the right places) depending on the section of the song in the mix versus the raw tracks. I'm impressed with the level of attention to every single detail.

    2) What sort of processing was used on the vocal during the mix stage? I ended up having quite a chain (albeit with small amounts of each processor) to get an approximation to your vocal sound but I have a feeling that I'm making it harder than it should be. I was running a little bit of limiting, and some small 400-500, 1k, and 3k notches to try and take the emotion of the vocal up another step (whether I succeeded or not is a different story ), some de-essing and then a "tube" plug-in.

    Also very curious to know what you didn't like about your first mix.

  15. #15
    Hates these rank titles! Wife left with tractor salesman...got John Deere letter
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    The bells would be great for the James Bond - Aren't You Proud! (The Movie) mix.
    pity I can't quote other threads, but I fucking knew it.... It's soooo friggin Bond! .... the guitar just tops it off...... sorry Ryan, but lets get Chris Cornell to do some overdubs for that movie mix

    thanks for the write up MM.
  16. #16
    once played a seventh chord in a folk song Utterly Superior Cocksmanship
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Yup, that mix certainly works! Really liked the comments on MixIt3 and the mix here too.

    re. tambourine elimination... I agree the mix works without it, and I had difficulty fitting it into my mix. Supposing you had, as producer, sent the tracks off for one of us to mix, along with a big fee... as producer, would you have been upset if we returned a mix that was missing one of the 21 or so elements that you gave us? As outside mixers, should we have phoned you first to discuss the tambourine, given you a mix with and without, or just knuckled down and MADE the tambourine work in our mixes?

    re. the stereo image of hard lefts and rights - it certainly simplifies the arrangement and explains how the hammond/guitar/rhodes can all exist at competing frequencies, and as you say, gives space for the vocals to sit low, and the bass to drive the song. I can see it is also central to this mix design - however, I think I prefer some of the more complex stereo presentations, because they seperate the guitar parts into more than one part, and because they do give more of a wall-of-sound, less seperated presentation of the music. Guess that comes down to taste? Or maybe I'm just wrong...
  17. #17
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman


    I was hitting the SSL pretty hard, for me anyway. Between 3-4 db on a fast attack, auto release at 4:1. You probably use it at 10:1. Right? I try using it at 10:1 all the time, and then go back to 4:1. I've never actually managed to use it at 10:1.
    Nah. Never at 10:1. Always 4:1. Usually fast attack and fast release. 2nd or 3rd position.

    Using the Auto Release (as you did) I can see why I didn't really hear it. It's all in the release for the grab for me.
  18. #18
    Ducked in here to avoid the paparazzi Has every David Cassidy record!
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    loved the mix mixerman ..that mix was in my head but i dont have the experience to get it there technically..or the means
    everything you said about the animal dying and how you approached it was in my head too , i guess thats what makes a mixerman...
    still thanks amillion for the experience.i learnt a lot
    by the way for mixerman 4 do well all get an SSL master compressor free?
  19. #19
    Join Date Feb 2008
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Thanks MM for a great post. Very informative and I think that's what most of us are here for.

    I appreciate your candid feedback and generalizations because I think it's dead on. I don't come from a "Rock" background, more classicaly trained/oriented having gone to school as a Music Major. So I tend to get into more musical/emotional aspects and not so much hard driving, in your face. I have been working on trying to capture that hard driving sound for my rock mixes and it seems I fell into the "trap" and tried to make this mix more hard driving when it clearly wasn't. Sometimes I think our brains get in teh weay of our ears.....
    Doyle Tipler
    http://www.myspace.com/doylemusicrecordingstudio

    "Lots of folks mix with their mind and their eyes rather than their ears and their gut..."
    Bob O.
  20. #20
    Little River Band on The Run Internet Meme
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    I have one question, MM. Do you bring any element for reference changing rooms like you do? Like a golden pair of cans or such? Pair of speakers? Room measuring tools?

    Be well - Pär

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