Thread: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

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  1. #41
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman


    I'm not going to start mixing for numskulls that don't understand how it works yet

    Mixerman
    Not fair, but...


    If they can still sing the song, I've done my job

    Mixerman

    it's a good answer.

    Yes, if they can hear the basics of the song and the vocals all the way, it's done.
  2. #42
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d: The Faders-only ITB mix

    I'm absolutely with you on this on. My own mix involved only a little buss compression and minimal EQ. 90% of the work on my mix was automation.
    d^_^b
  3. #43
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    The sounds that toms make in between actually being struck are what make a drumset come to life.
    Exactly. If the ring is overbearing, I'll sometimes ride the toms down between hits, but I still want SOME resonance from them.

    this perhaps answers a question i had about using a fast attack time on the ssl. i was wondering how you set the attack on the 2 bus compressor to achieve the result that you want without sacrificing the low end, but are you actually counting on the bus comp to shape the low end of the track? if anything like this is happening, it definatley makes sense to have it in the chain at the earliest possible point (tracking).
    Well, that's exactly what I'm using the SSL compressor for. There are two reasons to keep it in at all times. It tells me how the bottom end is reacting, because I'm hearing what it makes the compressor do. And it tells me how much top end is being shaved off. Because those compressors definitely shave off top end as you hit them harder.

    As to attack and release time, I don't ALWAYS use a fast attack. But that's not an uncommon setting on rock music. The SSL definitely has a sweet spot before you start losing all your low end.

    Mixerman
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  4. #44
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    I didn't gate the toms. I HATE gating toms because when I have to, it's typically an indication of problems with the tracking. Either the drummer just isn't hitting the toms with some intention, or the toms are so badly tuned that they resonate in a detrimental way, or both.

    The sounds that toms make in between actually being struck are what make a drumset come to life. Especially if you're working in a dead room. On my set, if I remove the floor tom from the equation, the kick drum loses a LOT of bloom - at least right there in the drummer's seat.

    I'm really surprised by how many people felt the need to sample replace, gate or process those drums heavily to get a sound. That gives me an idea.

    dik
    I'm glad I finally hear this from a drummer because I never liked what gates do to a drum set and avoided them if possible.
    I always wondered if I'm missing something because most other mixerdudes seem to use them a lot.

    Thanks.

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  5. #45
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    I normally don't gate drums but I just felt the bleed from the toms was clogging the mix.
  6. #46
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Hi Mixerman,

    first I want to say thank you for opening this thread, offering your knowledge and for giving us this great inside view of the whole process.

    What I would like to know is: What would've been your approach if you had to mix the song ITB ? E.g. for processing, would you've used the software substitutes of the real thing that you would've used when mixing on a desk ? Do you feel that these plugs do their jobs as well as the real thing ? Or is analog summing the main clue about getting the character/rawness of an on desk production ?

    Thanks,

    best wishes,

    Marco.
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d: The Faders-only ITB mix

    Hi dik,

    Good Song
    Good Arrangement and instrumentation
    Good Performance
    Good Tracking

    Completely agreed! I think that's one of the experiences to take from the MixIt! 3-event - to have the opportunity to take a look at how things could work fine when the quoted points are fulfilled.

    Best,

    Marco.
    "Here ain't there..." - Unfcknblvbl, June 17th, 2010
  8. #48
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    I see you mixed this on PTLE. I'm assuming in the box?

    I just blended the amp with the Di and EQed them a little. I might have run them through an La2a. Some of the mixes I did, some I didn't. Surely the SSL does plenty to clamp down on the bass, but the difference could be external summing. It really makes a big difference. I DID mix this on a console. I know people think that I say it's easier ONLY because that's how I prefer to work. But the fact of the matter is, I prefer it, because it's easier in many ways.
    Mixerman
    Yes, I mixed ITB. I don't think I'll be summing OTB any time soon (*cough*mbox2*cough*), so I guess I'll just have to keep trying to make it work. Bass is always the hardest part for me, not so much getting a balance I like, but getting a balance I like that translates to consumer systems that are inherently boomy.
    I also see that you gated the drums. I've muted toms on occasion in my mixing career (between tom hits). But I've rarely actually gated drums (unless there was a serious problem that needed addressing). What would be the reason for gating drums when the Rooms are letting it all hang out like that? Not criticizing you. Just pointing out, that some people don't actually gate drums. Like me.
    Mixerman
    When I started the mix, I had the tom track much louder than what I ended up using (I was excited to have tom tracks because I've never had them before). I think I had a compressor on them too that I later ditched. So at first I was hearing a lot of sympathetic humming from the floor tom. In the end the gate probably wasn't neccessarry, and listening to it now I can hear that the low end sustain is getting choked a bit. I did bypass it for the tom hits at the very end.
  9. #49
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    The sounds that toms make in between actually being struck are what make a drumset come to life. Especially if you're working in a dead room. On my set, if I remove the floor tom from the equation, the kick drum loses a LOT of bloom - at least right there in the drummer's seat.
    dik
    I've got a kit in my garage with a 14" and 16" tom (unmuted single-ply heads) CRAMMED up against the kick for this exact reason. But then, I don't close mic anything.
  10. #50
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Yes, I mixed ITB. I don't think I'll be summing OTB any time soon (*cough*mbox2*cough*), so I guess I'll just have to keep trying to make it work. Bass is always the hardest part for me, not so much getting a balance I like, but getting a balance I like that translates to consumer systems that are inherently boomy.

    When I started the mix, I had the tom track much louder than what I ended up using (I was excited to have tom tracks because I've never had them before). I think I had a compressor on them too that I later ditched. So at first I was hearing a lot of sympathetic humming from the floor tom. In the end the gate probably wasn't neccessarry, and listening to it now I can hear that the low end sustain is getting choked a bit. I did bypass it for the tom hits at the very end.
    Oh yeah! Now I remember. The low tom ring was definitely excessive. But I didn't worry about that during tracking because I have an SPL Transient Designer. By using negative sustain, I can reduce how long the toms ring. That box is great for that. If I had to do it in the box, I would have possibly just faded each tom hit or something. Or left it. But it was definitely a bit overboard. The problem is, if you choke the toms too much during tracking they lose their vitality.

    Enjoy,

    Mixerman
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Or someone put batter heads on the bottom of the rack toms instead of resonant heads
    I've made it a point to keep my trunk stocked with an assortment of drum heads (10,12,13,14 and 16) for both top and bottom. It's amazing how many drummers have no idea how to tune and/or maintain their instrument.

    It's equally absurd when a studio has invested in a nice house kit only to show up the day of the session to find the heads completely dead.
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Usually I like the tom leakage even more than the tom sound itself. I've been known to "lower" the tom mics when they're being hit.

    I never gate drums. Why would I want them to sound like a drum machine?
  13. #53
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    I sometimes use gates when HH bleed or whatever is too much
    for me. Its usually because of a drummer who has no clue
    how to balance the kit. But even then, the range on the gate
    is set pretty low so it's only bringing down the in between
    bits 5-10db depending on the amount of damage control
    i'm trying to do.

    Sometimes i'll use a compressor instead with a longer attack/release to
    make the drum punchier. I'm not against doing whatever it
    takes but the best results have always been from a good drummer,
    good kit, and me balancing the level of the mics.
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  14. #54
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d: The Faders-only ITB mix

    I agree with you guys - everything was just perfect for a fader-only mix (and dikledoux - good on ya for posting that mix - loved it), but I'd have to say this mix it event would be pretty damn boring if everyone just did the same thing wouldn't it?

    I don't know who said it or where the post was, but they said the obvious answer to your question: Mixing IS an art form and being such, each mix will be the result of subjective tastes.

    I, and I'm sure a bunch of other cats out there, took this as an opportunity to experiment and try things out - see what sticks to the wall and what doesn't. Mixers weren't given any direction on what sound the band or Mixerman was looking for, so it was open season to do weird and creative things if folks saw fit to do so.

    I sure as hell don't expect everyone to dig what I did with my mix. Some things I still like, and some things I'd definitely do differently.

    - But I see it all as a learning experience and leave it at that.
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    I never gate drums. Why would I want them to sound like a drum machine?
    Because you make squeaky clean pop albums?
  16. #56
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman


    Its usually because of a drummer who has no clue how to balance the kit.
    Wrong!!!!

    Its always because of a drummer who has no clue how to balance the kit.

    I've never got a bad recording of a great drummer.

    It's very difficult to do.
  17. #57
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    I never gate drums. Why would I want them to sound like a drum machine?
    But you use samples=) that's funny
    Well, I'm not critiqueing you, I only want to point that using samples is kinda alike to gating. One can argue that it is somewhat smarter to use samples but many may disagree.
    Also there's lots of ways to gate drums ITB giving you almost any result you may want.

    And at the end with good drummer one can do anything with drums and it will sound good as long as it fits the song!
    When in doubt, mumble!

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  18. #58
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    I've never got a bad recording of a great drummer.

    It's very difficult to do.
    Comes down to weakest link in the chain.

    Musician -> Instrument ->Mic and placement ->preamp ->processing -> recording medium -> mixing

    Of course, the last five are squarely in the hands of the engineer so a week link there can totally fuck up any of the last five steps to sound reproduction
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  19. #59
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    But you use samples=) that's funny
    Well, I'm not critiqueing you, I only want to point that using samples is kinda alike to gating. One can argue that it is somewhat smarter to use samples but many may disagree.
    Also there's lots of ways to gate drums ITB giving you almost any result you may want.
    Yes. I do use samples. I don't like the separation that I get from it though. I'd much rather have more leakage. Balancing the samples with a well balanced kit can be tricky. You're throwing the balance off. That's the rub unfortunately and a big reason why I try to use as much Overhead and Room sound as possible. It's also why I "try" to get the drums to sound great without samples. Then I can use much more real vs. sample ratio.

    And at the end with good drummer one can do anything with drums and it will sound good as long as it fits the song!
    Yes. I just don't desire individual "sounding" drums. It's my personal preference though.
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    Default Re: MiX iT! 3d - Discuss It: Mixerman

    Comes down to weakest link in the chain.

    Musician -> Instrument ->Mic and placement ->preamp ->processing -> recording medium -> mixing

    Of course, the last five are squarely in the hands of the engineer so a weak link there can totally fuck up any of the last five steps to sound reproduction
    I strongly disagree.

    I'll take a great drummer with Digi 002 over an awful one with all my gear.

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