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The Mixerman, Slipperman, and Aardvark Show Mixerman, Slipperman, and Aardvark host the forum versions of their "radio" show.

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Old March 27th, 2012, 10:52 PM
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Default Focal Press Author Ethan Winer in TapeOp

I just got the latest issue of TapeOp in the mail. I know the publication doesn't always get a lot of love here on The Womb, but I still enjoy reading it when it comes in the mail for free. I've found that it often contains pretty good interviews, if nothing else.

I was dismayed this month to find that the "end rant" section was written by none other than Ethan Winer, on none other than the subject of perception in relation to audio.

:

Here's an interesting excerpt:

"...I'm not talking about real differences, such as the sound of modern digital recording versus analog tape or vinyl records. Those differences are real, and are easily measured using the standard metrics of frequency response and distortion. Skilled listeners can easily identify which is which, nearly every time, in a blind test. Rather, what I'm addressing are differences that are perceived but not real - the placebo effect, if you will, or perhaps wishful thinking."

He goes on to state that the perceived amount of clarity in different audio summing systems is entirely psychoacoustic

Another excerpt:

"The hostility expressed in audio forums over these issues is discouraging. The fastest way to get a thread locked is to title it "converter loop-back test" and describe how nobody was able to hear the difference between a budget converter and one costing $1,000 per channel."

Yet another:

"The beauty of null tests is that they reveal all differences between two audio signals, including differences you might not even be looking for. So if there were some as-yet unknown property of audio fidelity, it would have been revealed years ago in a null test."

Overall I found the article to be much less repulsive than I was expecting (which isn't saying a whole lot), but I still think Ethan shouldn't be getting published in the same magazine as Jacquire King and Glenn Coleman, or any magazine at all, unless the article is about stuffing OC703 in a trash bag and covering it in fabric.

Discuss....

Last edited by clarito; March 27th, 2012 at 10:54 PM. Reason: sizing quotes
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Old March 28th, 2012, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

HMmmm. I, too, get TapeOp although I don't always read it - sometimes there's an interview that I want, etc. I guess I'll have to open up the new issue and read what Ethan has to say, maybe fire off some commentary.
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Old March 28th, 2012, 02:48 AM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Of course...

It's all psychological...

Specially if you're delusional like Ethan
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Old March 28th, 2012, 04:30 AM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

the blind leading the deaf
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Old March 28th, 2012, 05:26 AM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Quote:
Originally Posted by weedywet View Post
the blind leading the deaf
It's the armless mixing brigade I tell you...
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Most audiophiles could listen to PERFECT pink noise and get just as much enjoyment out of it.
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Old March 28th, 2012, 09:48 AM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarito View Post

"The hostility expressed in audio forums over these issues is discouraging. The fastest way to get a thread locked is to title it "converter loop-back test" and describe how nobody was able to hear the difference between a budget converter and one costing $1,000 per channel."
Well,
I think it would be easy to set up such a test i a way that no one could tell.
And whoever nobody is...


All the best,
the keks
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Old March 28th, 2012, 02:53 PM
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Default

The poor guy clearly has a major rear end ache and chip on his shoulder (apparently caused by a compulsive need to shoot himself with a bazooka publicly times again). But of course he has to go crying to everybody about it (in this case a *new* audience).

Maybe our friend the console maestro from outer space was Ethan Whiny the Poop... (similar dynamics at work.)

:(
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Old March 28th, 2012, 03:22 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

So this is the "Nathan" that "SpoolMyCavity" was referring to in his recent tirade in his tired, ridiculous thread.

Ethan's taking more shots at industry pros....
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Old March 28th, 2012, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Tape Op runs hot and cold. There are some great articles and interviews but you sometimes have to navigate through the nonsense.

A friend of Ethan's who used to use "tape op contributor" in his sig (one of the previous forums... recpit?) had an epic flame fest with Steve "Loudist" Gursky in which Loudist essentially called him out as a poseur and charlatan, like, every day for a month or so while the former tried in vain to defend himself.

I wonder (doubt) if Larry Crane even read Ethan's rant; Ethan seems to be implying that the sand blaster card that comes with your Sosumi laptop sounds every bit as good* as $1000 per channel converters -- the kind whose glossy full page ads adorn the front pages of his magazine



*when monitored through a rane disco junior and jbl butthorns
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Old March 28th, 2012, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Quote:
Originally Posted by nobby View Post
I wonder (doubt) if Larry Crane even read Ethan's rant
I'm surprised that Consumer Reports hasn't yet hired Ethan to be their electronics editor. His thinking would fit in perfectly there.

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*when monitored through a rane disco junior and jbl butthorns
"JBL Butthorns!" I wonder how many pervs in this world have attempted to use JBL butthorns as a masturbation enhancement device. Ew.....
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Old March 28th, 2012, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarito View Post
I just got the latest issue of TapeOp in the mail. I know the publication doesn't always get a lot of love here on The Womb, but I still enjoy reading it when it comes in the mail for free. I've found that it often contains pretty good interviews, if nothing else.

I was dismayed this month to find that the "end rant" section was written by none other than Ethan Winer, on none other than the subject of perception in relation to audio.

:

Here's an interesting excerpt:

"...I'm not talking about real differences, such as the sound of modern digital recording versus analog tape or vinyl records. Those differences are real, and are easily measured using the standard metrics of frequency response and distortion. Skilled listeners can easily identify which is which, nearly every time, in a blind test. Rather, what I'm addressing are differences that are perceived but not real - the placebo effect, if you will, or perhaps wishful thinking."

He goes on to state that the perceived amount of clarity in different audio summing systems is entirely psychoacoustic

Another excerpt:

"The hostility expressed in audio forums over these issues is discouraging. The fastest way to get a thread locked is to title it "converter loop-back test" and describe how nobody was able to hear the difference between a budget converter and one costing $1,000 per channel."

Yet another:

"The beauty of null tests is that they reveal all differences between two audio signals, including differences you might not even be looking for. So if there were some as-yet unknown property of audio fidelity, it would have been revealed years ago in a null test."

Overall I found the article to be much less repulsive than I was expecting (which isn't saying a whole lot), but I still think Ethan shouldn't be getting published in the same magazine as Jacquire King and Glenn Coleman, or any magazine at all, unless the article is about stuffing OC703 in a trash bag and covering it in fabric.

Discuss....
Oh my. I'm sensing a letter to Tape Op...

Mixerman
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Old March 28th, 2012, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethane Whiner
"The hostility expressed in audio forums over these issues is discouraging. The fastest way to get a thread locked is to title it "converter loop-back test" and describe how nobody was able to hear the difference between a budget converter and one costing $1,000 per channel."
That's especially true when, due to extreme highly developed technical skillz™ of the testing staff, the signal never passed the budget converter and the original signal was nulled with itself.

I've never seen a null which was THAT null before. It was SO null, it was already almost negative.

MacNullingExpert
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Old March 28th, 2012, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

I get Tape Op and I think it's generally a cool little rag, some interesting people and worthwhile articles pop up now and then.

I tend to agree with the assessment about it running a little hot and cold, but, hey, that's alright. I mean, sometimes I read something somebody says and think "well, hang on, I don't know about that", but I just sort of read it all with the simple attitude of absorbing the useful nutrients and blowing the waste matter out my ass.

I got the new issue a few days ago and was a tad surprised myself when I got to the back page piece. Basically thought "oh, hello... this might be interesting" (with the qualifier here that "interesting" is applied with a bit of a twist).

I sort of read through it with a neutral mind as if I didn't know anything about the writer, and I thought that a lot of the readers might read that, the way it was written, and think that it was pretty reasonable, maybe even thinking "yeah, this guy has a good point!".

The perspective is quite a bit different for somebody who, shall we say, is familiar with a little more backstory.

Like, the bit about getting a forum thread locked and all that if describing how nobody could tell the difference between some low budget widget and $1K/channel converters... people could read that stuff and think "well, that's interesting!" and maybe get a whole batch of notions in their head, while thinking "oh, that poor persecuted man, attacked and reviled for bringing objective perspective and reason to audio issues!".

A tad different if you followed one of these terrible threads of persecution of Truth and Reason by the irrational mob and got a bit more information about the experiments.


It's like opening some car magazine and finding somebody who compared some street legal competition tires to some el cheapo no name brand nothing rubber that just fills the bill of being able to roll and keep the wheels from touching the ground and saying "there is no substantial difference!", but not mentioning that the "test" was to put the tires on a 1990 Chevy Lumina and cruise around city streets at 35 MPH for a while.


JLE
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Old March 28th, 2012, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

read the recent articles about how most people can't discern the differences between 'great' wine and typical (read as: inexpensive) wine?

wine experts could; thereby proving, or confirming, that there is certainly a difference.
but most people aren't able to tell.


that doesn't "prove" that there's no need for fine wine.

only that Ethan isn't an expert
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Old March 28th, 2012, 06:17 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Quote:
Originally Posted by nobby View Post
I wonder (doubt) if Larry Crane even read Ethan's rant
LOL at every one of you guys. Here's my exchange with Larry:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Email from Larry Crane
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Interview / End Rant
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:26:44 -0800
From: Larry Crane <larry@tapeop.com>
To: Ethan Winer <ethanw@ethanwiner.com>

I like it. I'll plan on running it.

> Hi Larry,
>
> Attached is my End Rant for the March issue of Tape Op. Please confirm you received this, and that it's acceptable.
Then a few days before the issue came out, the publisher sent me this email:

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Originally Posted by Email from John Baccigaluppi
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Nice piece!
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:57:46 -0800
From: John Baccigaluppi Tape Op <john@tapeop.com>
To: RealTraps <ethan@realtraps.com>

I like the article you did we're publishing this issue!!!
So much for your sophomoric (sophomoronic?) opinions.

--Ethan
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Old March 28th, 2012, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Quote:
Originally Posted by weedywet View Post
read the recent articles about how most people can't discern the differences between 'great' wine and typical (read as: inexpensive) wine?

wine experts could; thereby proving, or confirming, that there is certainly a difference.
but most people aren't able to tell.


that doesn't "prove" that there's no need for fine wine.

only that Ethan isn't an expert
that's a good way of putting it.
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Old March 28th, 2012, 10:51 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le chef View Post
The poor guy clearly has a major rear end ache and chip on his shoulder (apparently caused by a compulsive need to shoot himself with a bazooka publicly times again). But of course he has to go crying to everybody about it (in this case a *new* audience).

Maybe our friend the console maestro from outer space was Ethan Whiny the Poop... (similar dynamics at work.)

:(
No. I know Ethan - he's actually quite a nice guy when he's not spouting nonsense - and while he does have delusions of being James Randi, he is not actually clinically paranoid and is not a mean person by nature.
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Old March 28th, 2012, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Quote:
Originally Posted by weedywet View Post
the blind leading the deaf
Quote:
It's the armless mixing brigade I tell you...
"What does it sound like?"

"I don't know."

"What?"
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Old March 29th, 2012, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

Typically my subscription ran out last month.

I was yet to renew it and then this happens.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 05:48 AM
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Default Re: Ethan Winer in TapeOp

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Originally Posted by nobby View Post
Tape Op runs hot and cold. There are some great articles and interviews but you sometimes have to navigate through the nonsense.
Bingo.
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