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  #1  
Old April 15th, 2012, 11:51 PM
henry miller henry miller is offline
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Default Hard Knee comp

Sorry if this is such a basic question... but do you think on a vocalist's lav mic a hard knee setting can increase the popping noise P's and T's mostly. It is for an Iranian television company and unfortunately those two letters or similar sounding letters seem to crop a hell of a lot to ruin vocal takes..

I really need some advice... i have tried alot of tricks to tame this problem... eq, small lav pop shields, mic placement bit stuck now to what to try.. although i have not tried turning the mic upside down. Always been a bit skeptical about doing that.

Any help to tame the pops would be helpful

Thanks.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 11:04 AM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

Popping with a lav mic is almost always a placement issue.

In my experience, it's not the 'P' and 'B' plosives that get you, it's things like 'K', 'Q', and 'T' that are the problems.

Put your hand palm up under your chin, and run through the alphabet...you'll be able to feel which letters are going to be a problem. 'P's and 'B's tend to push the air out and away from the mouth, where as 'K's and 'T's push the air down.

If the talent is facing camera, you could try placing it on his jacket lapel, rather than on his tie...ie off to the side, rather than directly below.

I'm not a fan of placing the mic upside down, but I have used when the talent is especially bad for breath blasts. Thinking about it, it has usually turned out to be female talent in those instances. Go figure.

In your example, it certainly can't hurt to try placing it upside down.

As for compression, I would do it for the normal voice - rather than the pops - and use whichever sounds best in terms of knee. An HPF would be more useful than any comp/lim stunts.

And in a studio scenario, the only time I'd consider NOT running with a mini windsock is when you have placed the mic upside down...and providing it doesn't fall off, I'd probably still run with it.

HTH


Cheers,
Tim
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The best radio mic system that money can buy is ALMOST as good as a $20 cable.

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Old April 16th, 2012, 05:28 PM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

Hi Tim as usual thanks for the reply.

http://www.gak.co.uk/en/sennheiser-m...FUYKfAodS3tmkw

this is the mic i dont like it, but its the only ones available to me. Its all shot in the television studio with no post prod for sound and the aesthetics in terms of looking good on camera is SO important to the director etc... so i am going to try the upside down trick before the adding of a mini windsock.

But could you still recommend a small windsock please. The mic is supplied with a shield type cap housing ( see pic to link) but i know it could be made better in terms of efficiency , its just finding the sock that looks right and more to the point sounds right.

Yes as you say its the K's and 'T's that are the big problem letters.. Fârsi to me sounds like it is based on sharp attacked letters of this nature. Its obviously more of a problem when the talent lower their heads closer to the mics when reading from a held script. HPF i sometimes go as high to 200Hz male and more so for female readers.

These guys really have no technique to positively remark on but in their defence they have no auto cue and constantly need to glance down at their scripts due to late coming news without rehearsals. Also i am going to back off on the comp to also see if that helps at all... although i don't use much reduction any how.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of placing the mic upside down, but I have used when the talent is especially bad for breath blasts.
Why Tim because you may need extra gain ( more mech noise ) , or because clarity is jepordised. I don't feel like these mic caps are true omni... that concerns me a little.

Last edited by henry miller; April 16th, 2012 at 05:54 PM.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by henry miller View Post
Why??? because you need extra gain, or because clarity is jepordised. I don't feel like these mic caps are true omni... that concerns me a little.
I think you've nailed it...it's the not quite true omni pattern - due probably to the actual mic body causing a hole in the pattern. However, the additional gain required isn't unreasonable...1 or 2 dB at most.

With those ME2's...leave the metal wind sock on them. They aren't the greatest sounding Sennheiser ever made...and are unfortunately supplied as standard with the EW100 G2 & G3 radio mic systems.

Your biggest problem is the lack of autocue. Having the talent leaning into the mic isn't helping things for you. Mind you, if your director is SO concerned about the visuals, then show him a picture of a Sanken COS11. He'll find the money to ditch the ME2's in short order.

Cheers,
Tim
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Don't forget, we are all engaged in a battle to the death against mediocrity.

The best radio mic system that money can buy is ALMOST as good as a $20 cable.

One of the most important things to remember about sound is:
'Sucks' is always conducted better than 'Rules'. - Pimp-X wisdom


Never underestimate the power of stupid - Blackie C (RIP)

Ego and talent seldom go hand in hand... Talent and humble on the other hand... - Zoesch

Weedy ignores this simple bit of glaring obviousness because he is an "ELECTRIC BASS GUITARIST"(coughcough)
and views the kick drum as a "bass riff rhythmic pattern suggestion generator" - Slipperman
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  #5  
Old April 16th, 2012, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

Sock it.

I hate lavs with a passion, they can be a nightmare if you don't sock 'em.

I HAVE used a comp to kill that stuff, but it will still sound like shit, and in your situation I doubt it will work that well.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

axeslash

it is socked but only with the standard metal sock that senn provide... do you have any suggestions.

would it be better to but decent socks for them or stick another sock on top of the metal sock... would that help matters i'm not sure??
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:04 AM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

Quote:
I think you've nailed it...it's the not quite true omni pattern - due probably to the actual mic body causing a hole in the pattern.
so is this the case for most omni lav mics,

i do have access to these

http://www.sennheiser.co.uk/uk/home_...831?Open&row=1

but to be fair i don't hear too much of a difference in audio quality maybe a bit more 5-6 k. I am just wondering if this mic is more true to the term omni.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 05:03 AM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

Use the MKE2's.

They are a significant improvement over the ME2.

Also, being smaller, the total size with the windsock on is more camera friendly.

Cheers,
Tim
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Don't forget, we are all engaged in a battle to the death against mediocrity.

The best radio mic system that money can buy is ALMOST as good as a $20 cable.

One of the most important things to remember about sound is:
'Sucks' is always conducted better than 'Rules'. - Pimp-X wisdom


Never underestimate the power of stupid - Blackie C (RIP)

Ego and talent seldom go hand in hand... Talent and humble on the other hand... - Zoesch

Weedy ignores this simple bit of glaring obviousness because he is an "ELECTRIC BASS GUITARIST"(coughcough)
and views the kick drum as a "bass riff rhythmic pattern suggestion generator" - Slipperman
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:26 PM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

We're so lucky to have Tim around here!!!

Great answers.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 10:42 PM
henry miller henry miller is offline
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

if i can take the metal popshield of the ME2 i would like to try

http://www.rycote.com/products/perso...lavalier_foam/

but don't want to waste my money if there would be no improvements
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Old April 17th, 2012, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

I wonder if the Rycote foam improve's on reducing clothing noise over the ME2 metal popshield.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 02:54 AM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by henry miller View Post
I wonder if the Rycote foam improve's on reducing clothing noise over the ME2 metal popshield.
No. Pop shields will have no affect on clothing noise(they shouldn't be touching clothing). If your concealing a mic under clothing then you don't need a shield as the clothing will act as a shield.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 05:48 AM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

Henry,

Any chance you could snap a pic to show us prezackly where you are putting the mic? We don't even need to see the face...just neck to waist of the talent in situ with the mic on.

Cheers,
Tim
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Don't forget, we are all engaged in a battle to the death against mediocrity.

The best radio mic system that money can buy is ALMOST as good as a $20 cable.

One of the most important things to remember about sound is:
'Sucks' is always conducted better than 'Rules'. - Pimp-X wisdom


Never underestimate the power of stupid - Blackie C (RIP)

Ego and talent seldom go hand in hand... Talent and humble on the other hand... - Zoesch

Weedy ignores this simple bit of glaring obviousness because he is an "ELECTRIC BASS GUITARIST"(coughcough)
and views the kick drum as a "bass riff rhythmic pattern suggestion generator" - Slipperman
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Old April 18th, 2012, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

Quote:
Henry,

Any chance you could snap a pic to show us prezackly where you are putting the mic? We don't even need to see the face...just neck to waist of the talent in situ with the mic on.
sure,, will do.

The mic position changes everyday due to what the talent wear in terms of wardrobe... and i try to find the best placement i can given the situation. Usually my position is favoured to the presenters head turn so either left side of jacket or right side of jacket.. or middle for a profile presenter. Problem with this is coverage change from profile to head turn.

I always have to use cardioid lav mics in the news room as the room is so so hard and reflective my preferable use of decent sounding omnis just would not have a chance in this room. This will be due to change as the room as the room is slowly treated, carpets first then small alterations that dont effect the look of the set etc (usual visual bollocks)... so for the time being i am stuck with the crappy M2 cardioid mics.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by henry miller View Post
I always have to use cardioid lav mics in the news room as the room is so so hard and reflective my preferable use of decent sounding omnis just would not have a chance in this room.
I strongly disagree. I've never found cardioid lavs to be useful in any situation.
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Old April 18th, 2012, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoff View Post
I strongly disagree. I've never found cardioid lavs to be useful in any situation.
+1

Cardiod lavs are WAY more sensitive to head position. When the talent is on mic - it's cool, but when they go off mic, they REALLY go off mic.

Does it sound like it LOOKS on screen?

IOW...does the picture give the viewer clues as to why it sounds like it does?

Now...if it is a horrible bouncy room, back off any compression...that will only make it more apparent.

Cheers,
Tim

PS. Going back to your original post...they aren't "vocalists"...they are "the talent" or "the reader".
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Don't forget, we are all engaged in a battle to the death against mediocrity.

The best radio mic system that money can buy is ALMOST as good as a $20 cable.

One of the most important things to remember about sound is:
'Sucks' is always conducted better than 'Rules'. - Pimp-X wisdom


Never underestimate the power of stupid - Blackie C (RIP)

Ego and talent seldom go hand in hand... Talent and humble on the other hand... - Zoesch

Weedy ignores this simple bit of glaring obviousness because he is an "ELECTRIC BASS GUITARIST"(coughcough)
and views the kick drum as a "bass riff rhythmic pattern suggestion generator" - Slipperman
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  #17  
Old August 12th, 2012, 10:56 AM
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Default Re: Hard Knee comp

High pass filter - run it up as high as you can without degrading the tone.

Multi-band compression or dynamic EQ.
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