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  #1  
Old April 12th, 2010, 06:03 PM
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Martini BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

The following short quotes are from the recently reopened Ethan Winer Open Invitation Thread (a thread from which I, Weedy, Goes211, Zoesch, Malice, Dwoz, Fletcher, and others were preemptively removed (a direct request from Mr. Winer himself as I understand it from sources inside)).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMarqueeYears on GS

1. What speakers do you use when you are testing?
2. Which monitor controller do you use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer response on GS

I have two systems in two different rooms. The speakers in my studio are large old-school JBL 4430s, with a 15-inch woofer and bi-radial horn tweeter. They're bi-amped at 1,200 Hz using a Rane crossover, which feeds a pair of Crown PowerBase amps totaling just over 1 KW. I don't use a "monitor controller" per se. Audio goes in and out of my computer through a Mackie 1202 mixer, and there's also a Rane "DJ" type mixer in the path where I select the source of Mackie, cassette deck, or Sony DAT player. It wouldn't be too difficult to patch around any or all of these pieces.

The other system is in my living room. It's 5.1 surround with a consumer receiver, Mackie 624s, and a killer SVS subwoofer with twin 12s. That room is smaller than my studio, so a dozen people can't all be in the sweet spot. But we can still play stuff there if people want.

--Ethan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themarqueeyears

I'm just lost for words, Ethan.

I shall quietly close the door behind me as I leave, I wish you well by the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer response on GS

What's wrong with that? Please be very specific. Facepalms do not count.

--Ethan
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Lambrechts after reading the above exchange



Chris
Maybe Ethan can go to the AES show this year and prove that low-end mixers like the Mackie 1202 (piggy-backed into a Rane DJ mixer (oooh boy)), are "truly transparent."

Discuss.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

P.S. Ethan is unbanned so he can elucidate.
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Old April 12th, 2010, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders. Read here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann on GS

The latest rash of comically indignant expressions of outrage about Ethan's monitoring chain are simply more red-herrings that divert the focus away from his original offer to invite you to his place to test your A-D converters against his.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer response on GS
Exactly. So far I have nine people attending, and not one of them is firmly in the "Ethan is full of shite" camp as Kenny jokingly suggested. Not one person from the other side is willing to come here and risk picking the SoundBlaster blind as sounding best. Not one of them.

So, let me see if I've got this straight. We're all locked out of the GS thread (and we did nothing, this was a preemptive strike), yet Ethan insinuates that we have not made every effort to arrange for a test, knowing full well we can't defend ourselves?

I do believe the record shows otherwise.

Mixerman
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Old April 12th, 2010, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

Please do continue.
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Old April 12th, 2010, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

UPDATE!!!!!!

Aardy eviscerates Ethan on GS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aardvark on GS
Quote:
Originally Posted by joedoc View Post
I believe that he'll be open to a test of the Mackie/Rane bit vs. another monitoring chain, and think that he'll gladly concede the difference if the majority hears it!
You obviously have no idea the number of times a majority of folks in a debate, most of them audio professionals, have told Ethan they hear something differently than he does. Gladly conceding is not part of his vocabulary.

Quote:
I think the *insinuation* wworried here is that if you're monitoring through a Mackie mixer, it's possible that you can't hear the difference between converters.
Not exactly... his monitoring system is into the Mackie and THEN into his Rane DJ mixer. So we are talking two low-end mixers mezed and not just one entering the equation. If this does not strike you as both odd and clueless I am not sure what will.

The insinuation (and a very strong one at that) is that nobody who has even a remote idea would consider this chain to be either logical or suitable to professional audio needs... sure it might be just what any stone-deaf punter looking to amuse him or herself with audio manipulation requires but other than that this is a rig that speaks volumes about what seems to be the key, if somewhat unspoken, point here... Mr. Winer cannot hear worth a damn.


What else can explain his determinations?


The first test needed is a hearing test for Mr. Winer, followed by a DNA test.hittt


A fundamental hearing problem would also explain his inability to hear what so many others, especially those folks who have been making records for decades, easily hear when it comes to basic transcription and reproduction technologies.


The DNA test would help us determine something else about this quickly decomposing giant mud-carp he has left on the beach of audio common sense... he cannot be serious right? This must be a send-up right?


Is Ethan really who he says he is?


Has anyone ever seen him in the same room with Andy Kaufman before Kaufman's alleged death?


A little Google work says that Ethan and Andy are the same age. Further sleuthing reveals that Ethan only starts to make his "name" around the same time of Kaufman's alleged death.

Note the pictures below.

Now, ask yourself a simple question.



What is more believable:

1: Ethan is for real, his methods and conclusions are to be taken as scientific fact.

2: Ethan is actually Andy Kaufman pulling one over on a number of wide-mouth Bass.

3: Ethan can't hear the differences, subtle or bold, that everyone else seems to be able to distinguish so perhaps he is just plain hearing-challenged.


Oh... and for the record... I offered to arrange a test in NYC for Mr. Winer, Mr. Wet and a few others to attend where we could test the veracity of their various claims in regard to hearing format and converter differences... Mr. Winer has never responded. Also, Mr. Wet is not allowed to post here to defend his position, muck like a number of folks at the Womb. For Mr. Winer to misrepresent Mr. Wet or any other folks who are unable to defend themselves here is a rather inelegant convenience I would suggest. As for defending himself at the Womb, Mr. Winer's account is fully functional as we speak. He is welcome to address our readership regarding his choice of monitoring equipment and how he uses it or any other illuminating aspects of his methodology.



Cheers,
Aardvark

Ethan responds! Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aardvark on GS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan responds on GS
I offered to arrange a test in NYC for Mr. Winer, Mr. Wet and a few others to attend where we could test the veracity of their various claims in regard to hearing format and converter differences... Mr. Winer has never responded.
Liar. I offered repeatedly at the Womb to go to Weedy's in NYC and he never replied. If you're willing to set this up, I'm all for it. Please email me from my web site with some proposed dates.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aardvark on GS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan responds on GS
Mr. Wet is not allowed to post here to defend his position.
As far as I know WW is not barred from this thread. Why would he be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aardvark on GS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan responds on GS
As for defending himself at the Womb, Mr. Winer's account is fully functional as we speak.
Oh really? The last time I tried to log in many weeks ago a message popped up saying I'm banned for life. Would you guys please make up your mind?

Regardless, I'm not about to post at the Womb unless you guys promise not to delete or alter or moderate even one word I write. If you can't promise me that, then you're far more full of shit than you accuse me of being.

--Ethan
Someone pull out the quotes in which I offer to put him up at my house, and the one where I say I'll be in NYC in the summer, and the one in which Weedy offers to set it up when he finishes one particular record, and then the part where Ethan starts completely changing the terms by suggesting we compare a high-end converter to source rather than a Sounblaster.

I don't have the time.

Of course, I don't need to mention the obvious fact that Mr. Winer didn't address anything remotely substanteive from Aardy's post. Ahem.

Enjoy,

Mixerman
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Old April 12th, 2010, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

There is not much to discuss.

What floors me is how Jules totally discredit his own board by allowing this farce to take place in his own forum letting Ethan decide who can attend and debate and who cannot as if were running the place.

Not a very good way to set the boundaries of a fair test

malice
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Old April 12th, 2010, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

That said, I would love to have an honnest debate here about the methodology. I do understand Ethan's able to post again here, and I'm glad.

I am still banned from the discussion at GS, but I asked him in another thread if he ever tried to null the output of his SB card with his monitoring signal path (Mackie 1202>Rane DJ mixer).

The thing is that I would be very surpised if it does. I mean, for having tested several consumer desks as monitoring against proper designed ones, I felt the difference was night and day. The image was colapsing, the noisefloor raised, the details were going down.

So patching two of them would make it difficult to make an educated judgment over converters, uimho.

But I may be wrong ...

Or not

malice

PS: for critical litening test, I would advice very simple passive monitoring system
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Old April 12th, 2010, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

In the meantime Ethan claims he has the answer as to why people facepalm him :

------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.Lambrechts View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Do you know why they have only facepalms and no answers? I do.

--Ethan
You do ?

.......





Chris
------------
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Old April 12th, 2010, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

Well I'm currently doing all of my mixing on a DJ mixer (one of the ones with the two little turntables, (I'll be damned if I can figure out how to get a record to spin on one of these things but that's beside the point)), so I don't see what all the damn fuss is all about.
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Old April 12th, 2010, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ded4now View Post
Well I'm currently doing all of my mixing on a DJ mixer (one of the ones with the two little turntables, (I'll be damned if I can figure out how to get a record to spin on one of these things but that's beside the point)), so I don't see what all the damn fuss is all about.
I hate to say this, but marriage has soften you Ded

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Old April 12th, 2010, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

THIS JUST IN!!!!

Malice feigns not knowing whether two low end mixers in series (let alone just one!) would drastically affect the quality of Ethan's monitoring.

See above.

Mixerman
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Old April 12th, 2010, 07:42 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixerman View Post
THIS JUST IN!!!!

Malice feigns not knowing whether two low end mixers in series (let alone just one!) would drastically affect the quality of Ethan's monitoring.

See above.

Mixerman
LOL,

I wouldn't have asked him to try to null direct and the mon. path if I was not sure it would ruin his week

malice
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Old April 12th, 2010, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

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Old April 12th, 2010, 08:20 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

In many ways, this new result is no surprise whatsoever, and in fact Ethan's lack of acknowledgement that his most recent statements in any way change the game, is wholly consistent with his worldview and position.

He has stated many times, over and over, very precisely, that a component of a system that displays a certain level of competence in it's 4 measurements, IS transparent and IS a high fidelity piece of equipment.

why should he hold that true for something like a soundblaster, and not also hold it true for a low-end utility mixer?

He is being entirely and completely consistent.

One may wonder...Ethan has in fact stated that he used to actually own and work in a recording studio, back in the 1970's. Shouldn't this whole issue be raising a red flag for someone of that experience?

The answer is simple. "No." The sad truth is that recording studios (as perhaps distinct from mastering rooms) of that vintage, typically had very little going for them in the area of "room science".

The keyword there being "typical". there are/were of course, amazing rooms with amazing monitoring...

...but back then there WERE no meter-bridge nearfields, apart from the ubiquitous Auratones. Most shops were using amps like Crown DC-150's or worse. Most had soffit-mount speakers that were NOTHING LIKE tuned to the room they were installed in. Many of those rooms even employed 1/3 octave equalizers to "tune" the room.

So it wouldn't be a terrible stretch to wonder if his 1970's recording studio monitoring was "vastly inferior" by today's standards.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Ethan's work to combat the stupidity and willfully fraudulent pseudoscience of the audiophiles is nothing but good and welcomed. Where he falls down, is where he tries to generalize that work across to audio production.
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Old April 12th, 2010, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

SORRY, complete amateur here..

but reading this, it just strikes me as a silly situation propagated by winer...


so...

how hard would it be for the guys here, with the gear in hands, to create a 'dual' test, done correctly (figure out the ground rules, boil it down to the most simple direct method), with some level of measurement which cannot be denied, and post the results, panel to panel?

am i way off base here?

i mean, christ, are we talking about purely subjective opinion here, or simple science?
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Old April 12th, 2010, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

wouldn't a good mastering house, be the best place to shine a light?
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Old April 12th, 2010, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

About the null test over his exotic monitoring:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Then the question is how will the nay-sayers respond if I show a very low residual null after passing through both the Mackie 1202 and the Rane mixer. Will they then admit they're full of it, or will such hard proof have no effect on their opinion?

--Ethan
Let's keep it civil and ask: define "very low" ?

He seems so convinced he allready has hard evidence, and on the mean time, he admits residual null ...



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Old April 12th, 2010, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Then the question is how will the nay-sayers respond if I show a very low residual null after passing through both the Mackie 1202 and the Rane mixer. Will they then admit they're full of it, or will such hard proof have no effect on their opinion?

--Ethan
Nope, sorry. Circular logic. The very premise we're refuting is that the particular specs Ethan has identified as being the only relevant AND COMPLETE measure of fidelity, are in fact that.

So if that's the premise of our attack on his conjecture, how could we possibly accept as proof, a recitation of those very specs?


No...the fact is, we would EXPECT to find it difficult to hear salient differences, given his monitoring environment. thus we would EXPECT to have random results from performing that test.

THEN, we would expect to have statistically significant results by repeating the same test with the same program material, on a sufficiently-competent monitoring system and sufficiently-trained cohort.

this would prove what many have already decided to be the case: that Ethan is trying to play basketball in the NBA with one hand tied behind his back.
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Old April 12th, 2010, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoz View Post
This would prove what many have already decided to be the case: that Ethan is trying to play basketball in the NBA with one hand tied behind his back.
Actually, it's more like Ethan went into the NBA locker room after the game, whipped out his pee wee sized dick and yelled, BEAT THIS!

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Old April 12th, 2010, 09:31 PM
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Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

It's funny, as i sat in a well tuned room with some of those nautilus thingys playing back awesomer music while a dear friend swapped converters which were calibrated as close as possible I wanted to pick the 350 dollar matrix, I wanted to hate the Lavry, The Benchmark, The Apogee, the audiophile wanker piece I've forgotton about.

Two gave me what I would expect, the rest were fine but the difference made me go out and buy one. I only wish there was a soundblaster available.

Y'all are shooting a dead horse, save the lead and go fishing.
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Old April 12th, 2010, 09:49 PM
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dwoz is infamous around these partsdwoz is infamous around these partsdwoz is infamous around these partsdwoz is infamous around these partsdwoz is infamous around these partsdwoz is infamous around these partsdwoz is infamous around these partsdwoz is infamous around these partsdwoz is infamous around these partsdwoz is infamous around these partsdwoz is infamous around these parts
Default Re: BIG NEWS!! Ethan Winer gets facepalmed on GS. Shunned by bottom feeders everywhere. Read here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comte de St Germain View Post

Y'all are shooting a dead horse, save the lead and go fishing.

So, is it true that y'all fish with 1/4 sticks of dynamite, down in those parts?
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"...never attribute to magic, that which can be explained by conspiracy."
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a real trap for ethan!, ada converters can increase the risk of an ethan attack, arcing ropes of schism, butthorns!!!, cognitive dissonance, deaf acousticians, don phillips milk of magnesia, don the con and his singing bowels, double handed falice palming, double-face-hand-palming, ethan, ethan winer uses sockpuppets, ethan's cat left him for another master, ethanasia, good news! facepalming can increase penis size, hockey is for dutch girls, hundred years war ensues..., i just heard jitter from the studio toilet, insulation pimp blues, jbl unicorn horns, ow my gad!, praise the mackie and pass the crack pipe, tempest meets teapot, this tag line is the funniest, up is down day is night bad is good and ethan is right, weedy receives a bloody nose on the school yard, who doesn't like pie!?!, who is this ass-hole magic chord, wow-this guy winer is certifiable, yes that line forms on the right babe now that mackie's back in town

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