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The Mixerman, Slipperman, and Aardvark Show Mixerman, Slipperman, and Aardvark host the forum versions of their "radio" show.

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  #61  
Old December 29th, 2010, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Dr. Richard Heyser, a research engineer at Cal Tech's JPL Laboratory, His work silenced this nonsense for a decade or so but since he passed away in 1987 the "measures perfect=sounds perfect" B.S. has been creeping back out of the woodwork. Heyser, incidentally, is the father of modern acoustical measurement.
Funny you should mention Dr. Heyser - that's what put me on the path of fear and loathing of Mr. Winer (well, actually it was the Bella Abzug glasses and Fluffy The Cat that sowed the initial seeds of doubt). I had paraphrased something that Dr. Heyser had said (supported by the real-world experience of John La Grou) and Ethan dismissed it and me somewhat rudely after which, I made it a point to stop visiting gearslutz and serendipitously found my way here.

And as much as I try to be gracious and understanding of those who have apparently lost at genetic roulette, I find the ongoing verbal pummeling he has taken at the very capable hands of Mixerman; JJ; Weedy; Dwoz; Aardvark; John Eppstein (my brother in Harvey Brooks); yourself . . . well, everybody . . . to be most vindicating and I'll admit, awfully gratifying. But then, Mr. Winer does seem to inspire affliction. On the other hand, it was his affable demeanor and sage council on audio measurement and acoustic treatment that inspired me to seek out the expertise and products of Glenn Kuras and GIK Acoustics - so I owe him a debt of gratitude there...

In the meantime, let me leave you all with some quotes by the venerable Dr. Heyser:

"Nature does not solve equations."

"At the present state of sound reproduction technology, the audio engineer shares the professional goal of a magician."

"The effect that modern sound reproduction strives to achieve is the creation of an acceptable illusion in the mind of the listener."

"If we wish to understand how to 'measure' what we 'hear,' then we must deal with subjective perception and the illusion of sound."

"The actual sound field in a listening environment is not identical to the sound field which we may perceive..."

"One of the worst-kept secrets in audio engineering is that what we hear does not always correlate with what we measure."

"Those whose principal professional involvement is based on the listening experience tend to develop a subjective viewpoint with value judgments seldom related to instrumental measurement."

"One of the most belittling experiences is to deride the 'black art' of a craftsman who gets consistent results by a certain ritual which he cannot explain and then to discover that his actions in fact held a deeper technical significance than we understood at that time from our simplified model."

"If we measure the frequency response of a system, and do it correctly, then we know everything about the response of that system. We have all the technical information needed to describe how that system will 'sound.' But the information we have is not in a system of coordinates that will be recognizable by a subjectively oriented listener...That is the root cause of the continuing fight between subjective and objective audio. It is not that either is more correct than the other...rather it is due to the fact they do not speak the same language."

"The next time you hear an argument between a technologist and golden ear about the audibility of certain types of distortion...is it possible they do not agree because each have [sic] a view through a different window?"

"You out there, Golden Ears, the person who couldn't care less about present technical measurements but thinks of sound as a holistic experience. You're right, you know."


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  #62  
Old December 29th, 2010, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

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Originally Posted by ManRoom Studio View Post
Funny... after which, I made it a point to stop visiting gearslutz and serendipitously found my way here.
which is really the most useful takeaway

but those are all great quotes

(and two quotes equal a half gallon)
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  #63  
Old December 29th, 2010, 07:57 PM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

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Originally Posted by Tim Halligan View Post
Y'know what?

I may have figured this out...and others possibly have too...

Ethan gets off on the fact that others are talking about him.

He wanders into a forum, posts something inflammatory/ridiculous, and then derives pleasure from the pages of posts that follow...like here.
Bullseye.

In my opinion, anyway.

If my memory isn't failing, I think I pointed this out to MM some time back when whatever squabble was going on.

Quote:
I'm sure the psychologists/behavioural scientists have a name for it...
Yeah. They call it Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Quote:
You want to really fix his little red wagon?

Stop talking about him. Everywhere. Anywhere. Now.
Bullseye again. The whole enchilada.

Although I can offer a quick thought/observation on this, based on way more experience than I would ever want anyone to have, in dealing with this kind of thing with someone (family).

One aspect of this is that for them, the absolute worst horror/evil/wrong is.... nobody is paying attention to me! The center of attention is not ME!

The response to being ignored, or even not being the absolute center of attention, is to double up on whatever the fuck it is until they ARE, or to wind people up with the most trivial pointless fucking melodrama.... like... e.g. ...getting a big raging drama going about a fucking web forum signature block.


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  #64  
Old December 29th, 2010, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

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Originally Posted by weedywet View Post
which is really the most useful takeaway

Tru dat!! (ooh, I'm never saying that again . . .)

And yes, the education and insights I've received here far exceed anything I've obtained elsewhere. I'm also quite grateful to be accepted among such illustrious company.

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  #65  
Old December 29th, 2010, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

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but those are all great quotes
+1.
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  #66  
Old December 29th, 2010, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

I guess I've known for some time the need to control for bias and others things when measuring anything related to people. It really got driven home many years ago as the wife was working on her PhD in experimental pysch. She used me as one of the subjects in a test. Just a workload task with different sized lines on a screen, and she put people in soundproof booth, with controlled lighting, had to take from them any watches, phones. Anything that may distract, or be different betwwen subjects.

At the end of the hour long test iwas worn out. And she only had about 100 subjects the run before she could do all the stats to see if the experiment worked.

To think one person can sit in front of two different audio devices and compare them at very fine levels of detail without controling for other issues, is plain stupid.
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  #67  
Old December 29th, 2010, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

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Originally Posted by MacGregor View Post
Selfgooglophile.

Mac
.

I think that would be "autogooglephile"
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  #68  
Old December 30th, 2010, 02:10 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

I'm assuming Ethan is college educated, so I'd be interested to know what his degree actually is in. Engineering of some kind?
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  #69  
Old December 30th, 2010, 02:32 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

I could give a shit. It's all a bunch of dick wagging and to be honest I'd rather be busy blowing smoke rings at the ceiling after tagging a Reebok wearing career woman than arguing with a turtlenecker.

To each his own and to quote Dorothy Parker: "I'm too fucking busy and vice versa."


Make audio not over turn rocks to uncover worms.
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  #70  
Old December 30th, 2010, 03:32 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comte de St Germain View Post

Make audio not over turn rocks to uncover worms.
No! No! No!

Make music!


THEN turn over rocks to uncover worms in your spare time.

Balance Comte. You need balance!

Enjoy,

Mixerman
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  #71  
Old December 30th, 2010, 03:56 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

No, you guys got it all wrong. There's a much easier way to get the worms out from under the rock. To wit:

1.) Get a two-wire extension cord.
2.) Cut off the female end.
3.) Separate the two wires so you have about 3' length on each separated wire.
4.) Strip a few inches of insulation off the end of each wire.
5.) Wrap the exposed copper around a long nail on the "head" end. [For the real tech heads you can solder this.]
6.) Push one nail into the ground on one side of the rock. [Slightly damp dirt works best so you might need to water a bit about an hour before doing this.]
7.) Push the other nail into the ground on the other side of the rock.
8.) There should be at least a couple of feet between the nails.
9.) Plug in the extension cord.
10.) Retire to the house and make a martini.
11.) Come out, unplug the extension cord, and retrieve the worms that have crawled out from under the rock.

Give a man a worm and he can catch one fish. Teach a man to worm and he can catch a school.

Enjoy!

Cheers,
--
Don
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  #72  
Old December 30th, 2010, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

Quote:
Originally Posted by idylldon View Post

Give a man a worm and he can catch one fish. Teach a man to worm and he can catch a school.

Enjoy!

Cheers,
--
Don
Don,

We are now are fishing on the pond, bloop - bloop goes the bobber!

Anyway - what about;

Give a man, AUDIO and he can catch one SOUND. Teach a man to BE AN ENGINEER and he can catch a BAND PLAYING MUSIC.
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  #73  
Old December 30th, 2010, 04:15 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
The problem with the ABX mafia from the very beginning has been absolutely no expertise in psychoacoustics or human perception. They discovered that it is easy to demonstrate expectation bias and have been beating the unsuspecting over the head with that demonstration for 4 decades as an exercise in eighth grade one-up-manship.

Dr. Richard Heyser, a research engineer at Cal Tech's JPL Laboratory, produced a circuit that measured perfectly on an Audio Precision rig but sounded horrendously distorted to the ear. His work silenced this nonsense for a decade or so but since he passed away in 1987 the "measures perfect=sounds perfect" B.S. has been creeping back out of the woodwork. Heyser, incidentally, is the father of modern acoustical measurement.
Bob, do you know where we might find a copy of this circuit?
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  #74  
Old December 30th, 2010, 05:22 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Bob, do you know where we might find a copy of this circuit?
Ethan's...

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  #75  
Old December 30th, 2010, 05:42 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Bob, do you know where we might find a copy of this circuit?
Creative Labs.

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  #76  
Old December 30th, 2010, 05:55 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Bob, do you know where we might find a copy of this circuit?
It's buried somewhere in the paid section of the AES archive. I don't remember if it was published in the Journal or in a convention paper.
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  #77  
Old December 30th, 2010, 06:09 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

Quote:
Originally Posted by idylldon View Post
No, you guys got it all wrong. There's a much easier way to get the worms out from under the rock. To wit:

1.) Get a two-wire extension cord.
2.) Cut off the female end.
3.) Separate the two wires so you have about 3' length on each separated wire.
4.) Strip a few inches of insulation off the end of each wire.
5.) Wrap the exposed copper around a long nail on the "head" end. [For the real tech heads you can solder this.]
6.) Push one nail into the ground on one side of the rock. [Slightly damp dirt works best so you might need to water a bit about an hour before doing this.]
7.) Push the other nail into the ground on the other side of the rock.
8.) There should be at least a couple of feet between the nails.
9.) Plug in the extension cord.
10.) Retire to the house and make a martini.
11.) Come out, unplug the extension cord, and retrieve the worms that have crawled out from under the rock.

Give a man a worm and he can catch one fish. Teach a man to worm and he can catch a school.

Enjoy!

Cheers,
--
Don
Fuck! I got 9 and 6 backwards!

Enjoy,

Mixerman
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  #78  
Old December 30th, 2010, 06:48 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

I've been exchanging PMs with Ethan at Gearslutz and he has invited me to attend another one of his "debunking" panels that he is planning for next year's New York AES convention - his words were "so you can attend and heckle me from the cheap seats."

Sadly, I will almost certainly not be able to attend due to financial reasons, but perhaps some of you who are closer to the city might want to attend as my proxies?
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Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
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  #79  
Old December 30th, 2010, 06:56 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixerman View Post
No! No! No!

Make music!


THEN turn over rocks to uncover worms in your spare time.

Balance Comte. You need balance!

Enjoy,

Mixerman
Yep! You need the worms so you can go fission!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
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  #80  
Old December 30th, 2010, 06:58 AM
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Default Re: Ethan .... still taking shots at Mixie...

Quote:
Originally Posted by idylldon View Post
No, you guys got it all wrong. There's a much easier way to get the worms out from under the rock. To wit:

1.) Get a two-wire extension cord.
2.) Cut off the female end.
3.) Separate the two wires so you have about 3' length on each separated wire.
4.) Strip a few inches of insulation off the end of each wire.
5.) Wrap the exposed copper around a long nail on the "head" end. [For the real tech heads you can solder this.]
6.) Push one nail into the ground on one side of the rock. [Slightly damp dirt works best so you might need to water a bit about an hour before doing this.]
7.) Push the other nail into the ground on the other side of the rock.
8.) There should be at least a couple of feet between the nails.
9.) Plug in the extension cord.
10.) Retire to the house and make a martini.
11.) Come out, unplug the extension cord, and retrieve the worms that have crawled out from under the rock.

Give a man a worm and he can catch one fish. Teach a man to worm and he can catch a school.

Enjoy!

Cheers,
--
Don
After you get the worms you can go trolling......
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
Everything is some mixture of awesome and suck. We simply want the awesome to be highlighted sufficiently that it distracts listeners from the suck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ohlsson
The appropriate role for science is the study of observed phenomena to gain an understanding. It is not dictating what people ought or ought not to be observing.
Hey, if I'm Grumpy, where the hell is Snow White????
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bass traps? isn't that an illegal fishing technique?, ethan hunter meets studio jimi winer, ethan is a bass trap, ethan is the richard simmons of nfl training rooms, ethan please stop making a fool of yourself!, ethan's cat left him for another master, ethan's model has a wart on her nose!, ethanasia, euthanasia, i had to put some bass traps in my sig file, i reeled in a four pound bass in my mix position, still gotta pay the troll toll, warning- does not cure insomnia

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