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  #41  
Old December 16th, 2011, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

Tony Maserati mixed Nellie McKay's Bruise In The Sky this way - with the guitar hard-panned left. And to be forthcoming, it kind of bothered me, being accustomed to more symmetrical mixes. But the interesting thing was that despite the guitar staying hard-panned left, the mix didn't lean to one side.

Anyway, a friend of mine asked me to do a karaoke-style version that she could sing to. So, I learned the guitar part, which was a lot of apreggiation and moving lines, and took it upon myself to correct this grievous error of unbalanced mixing - I doubled the part and panned it hard left and right.

In the meantime, I was reading ZaTAoM and came to the bit on asymmetrical mixes - the statement about perfectly symmetrical mixes being static and boring sort of hit home. I listened to my version with that in mind and had to admit that having the guitar perfectly balanced on both sides did make for a lackluster mix. Interestingly enough, I have to do a remix of the song for a compilation CD of music done by fellow co-workers - I'll be giving this asymmetrical thing a try . . .

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  #42  
Old December 16th, 2011, 08:24 AM
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Unfortunately AEs usually don't listen to music the same way other people do. It is too active a process for it's own good sometimes. All this constant analysing of every song/mix elements can backfire and make it hard to hear the forest from the trees... :-)
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  #43  
Old December 16th, 2011, 12:19 PM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

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Originally Posted by Le chef View Post
Unfortunately AEs usually don't listen to music the same way other people do. It is too active a process for it's own good sometimes. All this constant analysing of every song/mix elements can backfire and make it hard to hear the forest from the trees... :-)
I suffer from this often. I miss listening to music the way I did before I was actively involved in making it.
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  #44  
Old December 16th, 2011, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

That's part of the reason I refuse to learn my favourite songs on guitar.


The reverb-opposite-guitar thing works alright in headphones most of the time, but I think this is a shit example... just the bits where it's the first rhythm guitar without the second.



In speakers you don't notice a thing. But in headphones... the reverb is out of time with the main guitar and so the whole thing sounds... wrong.
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  #45  
Old December 16th, 2011, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

Something I have done to help a similar situation, but not the same:
  1. Copy the same track to a new one
  2. Reverse it
  3. Add delay or verb, anywhere from almost dry to very wet
  4. Then reverse it back and line up
  5. Keep tooling with that method until I get a result I like.

Works well, in my opinion, with hard panned tracks
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  #46  
Old December 16th, 2011, 07:53 PM
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You're just saying you love reversed ddl & reverb - panning nonewithstanding. (Something people have been doing for as long as multitrack tape has existed btw.) Not saying it can't be a nice effect at times...
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  #47  
Old December 18th, 2011, 12:33 AM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

Just for the record, I have NO problem with hard-panning tracks, or indeed with asymmetry. What I DO have a problem with is lopsided mixes.

Having e.g. guitar one side and keys the other is fine, they kinda balance each other out. Take one away (for the whole of the mix, for short periods that's obviously not a problem), and to me it sounds awkward.

I was not implying that I base pan decisions on headphones - far from it, I base VERY little on headphones. However, in the modern ShitP3/iPod world, you DO have to bear it in mind...

As for the Ben Harper track...love the mix and also the music...but I DO still find it awkward to listen to because of that damn guitar out there on it's own :P Personally I would have put something on the other side to give it some balance (even if it's just some room verb on said guitar), but hey, it's your mix and your client, and if both of you are happy about it then I should probably shut the fuck up. Also it seems to give the illusion of everything else (that I presume is all centred?) leaning slightly to the opposite side anyway, so maybe I'm exaggerating slightly...

Maybe I'm just too used to listening to music that has a more balanced pan field. Maybe I'll mellow in my old age
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  #48  
Old December 18th, 2011, 06:05 AM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le chef View Post
You're just saying you love reversed ddl & reverb - panning nonewithstanding. (Something people have been doing for as long as multitrack tape has existed btw.) Not saying it can't be a nice effect at times...
I'm saying I have liked the result of using the original track panned opposite of the reversed-processed-reversed track. Not the effect alone of the reversed track. When used together AND panned it has created some interesting results and makes panning key.
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  #49  
Old December 18th, 2011, 06:28 AM
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I know, but the way you described the actual process of getting to the reversed fx to me felt a bit like it was an almost novel thing. Hence my "historical footnote" comment. ;-)
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  #50  
Old December 18th, 2011, 07:31 AM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

As novel as possibilities can be…
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  #51  
Old December 18th, 2011, 07:02 PM
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:-)
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  #52  
Old December 18th, 2011, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

IMO, the different examples every body has mentioned (Faded, Extreme, U2...) are all songs that have a mix that I find exciting.
They don't sound conventional.

It's true that I hadn't be confident enough to mix these songs this way.

However, this whole thread is quite an eye-opener : after trying out every panning possible, it seems the solution should appear as an evidence.
As an engineer, one has the responsability not to be biased by some conventional procedure, and be open-minded to new approaches ( they aren't even new, in fact) that might sound way better.
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  #53  
Old December 18th, 2011, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixerman View Post
I don't know what you guys listen to, but there is enormous precedent for panning a guitar part hard like this. Why on earth would this make anyone feel uncomfortable?
I was reading your post again.
This sentence made me think...

You're right !

Although I've listened to a lot of songs mixed this way, it never bothered me. I never really thought about it in fact, simply enjoying the music.

When mixing, I'm no more using the part of the brain I use to enjoy the music. So, this hard-panned thing becomes an issue.
THERE HAS TO BE SIMMETRY !

Now, I realize that fun and excitment when mixing are great tools to reach another level, and make decision.
Probably are the wrong choices less exciting...
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  #54  
Old December 19th, 2011, 06:18 AM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

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Originally Posted by T.M. View Post
THERE HAS TO BE SIMMETRY !
AND SPELLCHECK!




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  #55  
Old December 19th, 2011, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?


Make that one track thick.







Delays and doubling tomfoolery is just that, if it works for the production then go for it but if it doesn't then just freaking use the one guitar at its finest.
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  #56  
Old December 20th, 2011, 12:19 AM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

i've multitracking guitars for a long time, lots of experimenting, and you know, it's a subjective thing.....

but my belief is that performing a part two, or three times, is always preferable to 'tricking out' a mix with a single performance that has been enhanced.


the human quality cannot be underestimated.
it's all the discrepancies in perfection, that make something compelling to listen to.
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  #57  
Old December 21st, 2011, 07:38 PM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

and in response to mixerman's 'rant' on hard panning.....

gotta totally agree.
and the ben tune sounds great.

i think, that 'beginning' mixers (myself included) have to go thru the learning period of trying to achieve 'balanced' mixes, before they can enjoy the 'pure' mix...

...my name, for mix decisions that are made either by the artist, or the mixer, or both together...
that are done for the art of it.
the uniqueness of it.

there are an infinite number of mix possibilities.....
the only one that matters, is the one that is made.
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  #58  
Old December 21st, 2011, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: Building a Thicker Guitar Sound from only 1 Track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Halligan View Post
AND SPELLCHECK!




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