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  #21  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by jord View Post
YOU THINK?!!?

Of course they are forming new media departments. I could have told you this... I'm one of the new media developers behind a couple of major companies. And, dealing with these companies first hand, I can still tell you that they don't get it. They are only creating these departments as a form of catch-up. They are running scared because despite all of the answers in front of them, they refuse to see them. They are relying on selling CD's still. They don't consider Internet sales of individual tunes as seriously as physical media. They will do whatever they can to promote CD's. To them, it's a tangible item. I can tell you first hand that they are not looking at every possibility. They are holding on tight to an old business model that is bottoming out. You'd think that this would be evident in the way they are bullying their longtime customers.

And, part of their decaying business involves the music that they are promoting and what great lengths they are going through to promote the crap that they are putting on CD's, to put it on commercial radio.

And, yes, Satellite Radio is gaining ground. Otherwise, the major labels wouldn't be trying to sue them as well as their customers. They are trying to make excuses and shift the blame from themselves, thus denying that a problem exists.

If you have hard facts telling me that my first hand experience dealing with these companies and their "new media departments" is nothing more than a false reality, I'd be happy to hear them.

jord
Well I'm prob in because if someone here asks me to put 99 cents towards something they believe in and it won't do any harm then I'm in.
However....
I still have to argue that I sat in a meeting maybe a couple of years ago where they discussed new technology at a major.
They discussed that physical merchandise will soon be just for collectors and they had designs for specific outlets for this form of sale. They also discussed the purchase of albums from your car when in a petrol station via somesort of streaming....and went on to discuss how soon people will just type the name of the song they want to hear in to their home system...or even say it and it will play. They expect most physical sales to dissapear...but intend on selling you the code to digitally stream the songs you like. This will also do away with mechanical royalties as people will not actually be downloading and keeping the songs...just streaming.
Anyway, I have much respect for you Jord but Disagree when you say they refuse to move on these points. I think markets often suffer because of change before they recover..a bit like economies after political change.
I will conceed that they have been reactionary rather than proactive.
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  #22  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by jord View Post
You'd think that this would be evident in the way they are bullying their longtime customers.
jord, I agree with everything you're saying, but I gotta disagree on this point.

You don't call shoplifters "customers" + let em shoplift, cuz if you arrest them they won't be your customer anymore. They weren't your customer in the 1st place.

The people who are getting sued for stealing music are absolutely not customers.
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  #23  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

While it seems like a good idea and great for the selected artist, I'm not sure I really see the point. At the end of the day, if this artist hits #1 on the iTunes chart, what was proven?
How does this help indie artists from here on out? Are we trying to get these guys a deal? Are we going to select a different artist every week? month?
The whole point should be to support indie artists and we should be doing that ANYWAY. We should be spending a buck a week to support indie music. I always try to buy a cd from bands on gigs with us,etc.
This just sounds too much like that dumb email about not buying gas on x date to stick it to the oil companies....

Actually I think its brilliant marketing for the band and I'm a little upset I didnt think of something similar first. Get a lot of people to rally against the record labels and sell a bunch of songs on iTunes.....
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  #24  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by Dubnick View Post
As well intentioned as this whole thing might be, I think it's a bit misguided. It is pretty clear that the days of major corporations being involved in the record industry, at least in the capacity that they have been for a while, are numbered. I doubt anyone is more aware of this than the corporations that own the current majors and the people working at said labels - I think, at this point, they're probably more concerned with getting water out of the sinking ship and deciding when to jump than about whether they should take more chances in thier signing choices. Plus, in a lot of ways, the independent artist/label has more tools at thier disposal to be able to maintain a successful business model than the majors do, so what's the point of wanting to join a club that's about to go broke and disband anyhow?

To me, this is sort of the equivelent of being driven in one's entire adult life by the need to "stick it" to the more popular schoolyard bully of your youth. Eventually you're going to meet that bully at some sort of reunion and realize that you've focused all your energy on trumping a guy that now has a shitty job, lives in a trailer and is working on his third divorce.

Instead of focusing on the majors in sort of a "Notice me daddy!" type way, why not focus on the fact that the music industry of the future will be and is being defined by the little labels and independent artists. The music industry of the future is likely to be closer to the days of pre-corporate involvement than anything else - a small independent business model with a lot of competition. Any artist still looking for a pie in the sky success or someone to blame for the lack thereof, is missing the point and some great opportunities to help define the future.
You've just invested @ least $2 of your time to argue why you shouldn't spend 99.

I couldn't think of a better way to demonstrate the industry's entrenchment in their old biz model.
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  #25  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by Charles Dye View Post
It makes two very worthy statements in one act.

1. It demonstrates that independent artists can succeed without the big dollars of the major labels.

2. It demonstrates the power of podcasting as a valid media outlet.

Two great messages to send.
They are two great messages to send, but to whom are we sending them? Let me illustrate what I mean by expanding on those statements:

1. It demonstrates that independent artists can succeed without the big dollars of the major labels...to major labels who have fewer and fewer "big dollars" to spend on development or marketing and, even with the budgets they do have, are less and less effective at marketing in this new environment.

2. It demonstrates the power of podcasting as a valid media outlet...to the established mediums which are struggling to keep advertisers happy as they prove to be less and less effective as advertising mediums and as more and more people turn to the internet for entertainment and news.

Shouldn't we, as a group, be concentrating more on solutions to the problems we will inherit (copyright, etc), and to some degree have helped build, from these mediums as they are dropped by thier parent companies, further leveling the playing field?

BTW - Anyone interested in some of the better coverage on how old media is having to deal with the shifting environment might want to check out these episodes of PBS' Frontline - they are free to watch -

On the struggles of established news outlets:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/newswar/view/

On the struggles of the major labels:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/music/

Note: When I say "struggles", I don't mean to imply sympathy, just describing the situation.
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  #26  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by stoned grace View Post
While it seems like a good idea and great for the selected artist, I'm not sure I really see the point. At the end of the day, if this artist hits #1 on the iTunes chart, what was proven?
How does this help indie artists from here on out? Are we trying to get these guys a deal? Are we going to select a different artist every week? month?
The whole point should be to support indie artists and we should be doing that ANYWAY. We should be spending a buck a week to support indie music. I always try to buy a cd from bands on gigs with us,etc.
This just sounds too much like that dumb email about not buying gas on x date to stick it to the oil companies....

Actually I think its brilliant marketing for the band and I'm a little upset I didnt think of something similar first. Get a lot of people to rally against the record labels and sell a bunch of songs on iTunes.....
Congrats - you have nailed it - right on the nose!
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  #27  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by Charles Dye View Post
This is grass roots on steroids.

It makes two very worthy statements in one act.

1. It demonstrates that independent artists can succeed without the big dollars of the major labels.

2. It demonstrates the power of podcasting as a valid media outlet.

Two great messages to send.

Aside from that, the song "Mine Again" by black lab is a really beautiful song that IMO deserves the #1 slot on iTunes if only for a day.

Check it out on black lab's myspace page. 4th song.

BTW, I don't know these guyz from Adam + have zero vested interests in their success or failure. I'm just supporting this for the 2 reasons stated above.

Best,
Charles

To be honest charles, to me this song sums up the reason so many people stoped buying records\cd`s
it sound like every thing i`ve heard in the last five years
it`s a cool song and well performed,but it`s just so safe
both in production and song writing
im sorry to say,if i did hear this on the radio it would just pass me by


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  #28  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by Charles Dye View Post
You've just invested @ least $2 of your time to argue why you shouldn't spend 99.

I couldn't think of a better way to demonstrate the industry's entrenchment in their old biz model.
I am not argueing that anyone should or shouldn't participate - and I'll say it again - if like the track, I'll probably participate - it can't harm anything, and it seems well intentioned (for the most part) but so long as we're discussing such good intentions, it should be pointed out where actions to that end may not be effective and what else can be done to further such a good cause.
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  #29  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubnick View Post
They are two great messages to send, but to whom are we sending them? Let me illustrate what I mean by expanding on those statements:

1. It demonstrates that independent artists can succeed without the big dollars of the major labels...to major labels who have fewer and fewer "big dollars" to spend on development or marketing and, even with the budgets they do have, are less and less effective at marketing in this new environment.

2. It demonstrates the power of podcasting as a valid media outlet...to the established mediums which are struggling to keep advertisers happy as they prove to be less and less effective as advertising mediums and as more and more people turn to the internet for entertainment and news.

Shouldn't we, as a group, be concentrating more on solutions to the problems we will inherit (copyright, etc), and to some degree have helped build, from these mediums as they are dropped by thier parent companies, further leveling the playing field?

BTW - Anyone interested in some of the better coverage on how old media is having to deal with the shifting environment might want to check out these episodes of PBS' Frontline - they are free to watch -

On the struggles of established news outlets:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/newswar/view/

On the struggles of the major labels:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/music/

Note: When I say "struggles", I don't mean to imply sympathy, just describing the situation.
You didn't expand on what I said; you narrowed it.

It sends those messages to everyone, not just the major corporations.
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  #30  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:40 PM
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Sushi Re: Bum Rush the Charts - Thur, March 22

What if someone were downloading an MP3 of something they already bought, just because they didn't feel like taking the time to encode the stacks of CDs themselves? Is that stealing?

I'm not trying to argue this point, and I definitely do not condone theft and my statement is not trying to reflect the promotion of theft of any sort. But, many artists will agree that bullying their customers with lawsuits is not the way to keep them as fans. They would rather see their fans in the concert halls, than in the courthouses. It's the record companies that don't see this and are not listening, with the artists paying a price far greater than the lawsuits against their fans. Then there's the question of who actually gets the money from these lawsuits.

I do know many people who have downloaded MP3's without ownership who went out afterwards to purchase the full albums, either on CD or through iTunes. While they have technically committed a crime in the first place, they have indeed done the right thing in the end. Had they lived in US, they would have gotten a John Doe Lawsuit still. Is that right to treat them like that?

Doesn't that give any indication that the labels are re-arranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship?

jord
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  #31  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by Dubnick View Post
...Unfortunately, I think a lot of folks have a huge misconception of the way things work, in large part due to a sort of fairy tale built up over the years majors' very own hype machines, which is unfortunate, because a lot of awesome people with great intentions are missing out on thier opportunity to really rebuild this industry as the small business model it was always made to be, allowing artists to retain control, integrity and make an actual living...
I couldn't agree with this paragraph more!

The problem is that people can't seem to pry themselves away from their fantasy that some mook might fall in love with their demo tape and make them a star. Folks seem obscessed with this irrational love/hate relationship with the major labels. It's all they can talk about.

Meanwhile what I feel are the real problems with the music industry, each an elephant standing in the room, are not being addressed. The biggest is the collapse of local music scenes where talented beginners can actually earn a living. The other is the unprecedented stranglehold that Madison Avenue has put on broadcast and live performance venues. This 1-2 punch is killing the public's interest in new music.

I think most of the stuff people rant about are symptoms of these fundamental underlying problems. Getting rid of record companies, Cheap Channel or the people who run them is not likely to change anything.
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  #32  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by Charles Dye View Post
jord, I agree with everything you're saying, but I gotta disagree on this point.

You don't call shoplifters "customers" + let em shoplift, cuz if you arrest them they won't be your customer anymore. They weren't your customer in the 1st place.

The people who are getting sued for stealing music are absolutely not customers.
Totally agree with Charles on this one. Not a RIAA defender, but I so wish that people that consider the tactics they are using to be too harsh and complain about them nonstop would put more effort into trying propose and lobby for more effective means for copyright/trademark owners to cope with the shifting nature of fair use in the digital environment. After all, once the major labels are out of the picture, artists and indepentent labels will have to defend and manage thier intellectual property and face many of the same issues if they want to be able to make a living and be fair to thier paying customers, whether that's the average record buyer or the production company wanting to negotiate sync rights for an artist's track. You can't make a habit of giving one customer the keys to the store while charging another for ever use.
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  #33  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by Charles Dye View Post
You didn't expand on what I said; you narrowed it.

It sends those messages to everyone, not just the major corporations.
OK - so Charles, do me a favor and explain to me what good it does to make these statements to not only the established infustructures, which are proving more impotent by the day and might soon be extinct, but to "everyone"? If "everyone" means the buying public, I'm afraid that most of them won't care or consider these issues until there is no new content to consume since the motivation to supply it will dry up. So I guess I'm confused - seems like 2 trees falling in the woods to me.
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  #34  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:54 PM
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Sushi Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by Scratchy Potts View Post
To be honest charles, to me this song sums up the reason so many people stoped buying records\cd`s
it sound like every thing i`ve heard in the last five years
it`s a cool song and well performed,but it`s just so safe
both in production and song writing
im sorry to say,if i did hear this on the radio it would just pass me by
Perhaps it's a measure they were forced to resort to in order to try and get airplay, or a reflection of past scars. I'll agree that it sounds like a U2 clone, but there is much worse polluting the air waves as it is.

jord
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  #35  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts - Thur, March 22

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Originally Posted by jord View Post
What if someone were downloading an MP3 of something they already bought, just because they didn't feel like taking the time to encode the stacks of CDs themselves? Is that stealing?
Did we just become the boycott-riaa.com forum while I wasn't looking.

That is not what is going on + we all know it.

Quote:
But, many artists will agree that bullying their customers with lawsuits is not the way to keep them as fans.
Dood, you've got to stop calling them "customers", and they're not real fans either. If they were they'd support their artists.

They're more like fanasites.
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  #36  
Old March 21st, 2007, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by jord View Post
Perhaps it's a measure they were forced to resort to in order to try and get airplay, or a reflection of past scars. I'll agree that it sounds like a U2 clone, but there is much worse polluting the air waves as it is.

jord
Bingo.. I thought U2 but then my brain turned my ears off and the song finished and I thought 'oh.. I stopped listening'
maybe its a grower.

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fanasites

I live in hope that when it becomes really easy to buy music..i.e. you pay your monthly bill and ask your stereo to play you a song which it digitally streams , people will prefer to pay than waste time downloading.
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Old March 21st, 2007, 04:59 PM
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Sushi Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by Dubnick View Post
Totally agree with Charles on this one. Not a RIAA defender, but I so wish that people that consider the tactics they are using to be too harsh and complain about them nonstop would put more effort into trying propose and lobby for more effective means for copyright/trademark owners to cope with the shifting nature of fair use in the digital environment. After all, once the major labels are out of the picture, artists and indepentent labels will have to defend and manage thier intellectual property and face many of the same issues if they want to be able to make a living and be fair to thier paying customers, whether that's the average record buyer or the production company wanting to negotiate sync rights for an artist's track. You can't make a habit of giving one customer the keys to the store while charging another for ever use.
Considering that the RIAA are a powerful lobbying group themselves, that would probably sink any proposed lobbying for reforms. I can see this, and I'm not even an American. It's not about getting rid of the RIAA. It's about getting them to rethink about who they serve and what they are doing.

jord
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Old March 21st, 2007, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts

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Originally Posted by Dubnick View Post
OK - so Charles, do me a favor and explain to me what good it does to make these statements to not only the established infustructures, which are proving more impotent by the day and might soon be extinct, but to "everyone"? If "everyone" means the buying public, I'm afraid that most of them won't care or consider these issues until there is no new content to consume since the motivation to supply it will dry up. So I guess I'm confused - seems like 2 trees falling in the woods to me.
This is exactly the david + goliath story the media loves to tell:

Grassroots effort takes unkown artist to #1 on iTunes for the day.

This is publicity pure + simple. It brings wider attention to the power of podcasting to reach a large audience + it puts a spotlight on independnet artists for a moment.

It probably will help the podcasters more, but who knows how this will shake out.

All I know is it will cost me 99 to support the cause + I feel it's a valid one.
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Old March 21st, 2007, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: Bum Rush the Charts - Thur, March 22

well at least proceeds are donated to a good cause..your 99cents could keep a college kid in weed for an hour!!
I agree it might...just might be a valid cause.
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Old March 21st, 2007, 05:06 PM
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Sushi Re: Bum Rush the Charts - Thur, March 22

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Originally Posted by Charles Dye View Post
Did we just become the boycott-riaa.com forum while I wasn't looking.

That is not what is going on + we all know it.


Dood, you've got to stop calling them "customers", and they're not real fans either. If they were they'd support their artists.

They're more like fanasites.
I'm not saying to get rid of the RIAA. I'm saying they need to rethink who they serve (ultimately) and why they are there.

The people I know did support their artists. Hence, the use of the word customer is appropriate for them.

On the same token, calling everyone who downloads an MP3 is a "thief" is just as bad (I've already stated a couple of real-life examples).

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